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 Post subject: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 7th, 2012, 12:11 pm 
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WOOT

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... nconstitutional.html

Quote:
A federal appeals court Tuesday struck down California's ban on same-sex marriage, clearing the way for the U.S. Supreme Court to rule on *** marriage as early as next year.

The 2-1 decision by a panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals found that Proposition 8, the 2008 ballot measure that limited marriage to one man and one woman, violated the U.S. Constitution. The architects of Prop. 8 have vowed to appeal.

The ruling was narrow and likely to be limited to California.



“Proposition 8 served no purpose, and had no effect, other than to lessen the status and human dignity of gays and lesbians in California,” the court said.

The ruling upheld a decision by retired Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn R. Walker, who struck down the ballot measure in 2010 after holding an unprecedented trial on the nature of sexual orientation and the history of marriage.

In a separate decision, the appeals court refused to invalidate Walker’s ruling on the grounds that he should have disclosed he was in a long term same-sex relationship. Walker, a Republican appointee who is openly ***, said after his ruling that he had been in a relationship with another man for 10 years. He has never said whether he and partner wished to marry.

ProtectMarriage, the backers of Proposition 8, can appeal Tuesday's decision to a larger panel of the 9th Circuit or go directly to the U.S. Supreme Court. The high court is expected to be divided on the issue, and many legal scholars believe Justice Anthony Kennedy will be the deciding vote.

Gays and lesbians were entitled to marry in California for six months after the California Supreme Court struck down a state ban in May 2008. The state high court later upheld Proposition 8 as a valid amendment of the California Constitution.

While the Proposition 8 case was still pending in state court, two same-sex couples sued in federal court to challenge the ban on federal constitutional grounds.

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 Post subject: Register and login to get these in-post ads to disappear
PostPosted: February 7th, 2012, 12:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 7th, 2012, 12:45 pm 
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trekkie wrote:
The ruling was narrow and likely to be limited to California.

:/

Seems rather fishy that the ruling keeps getting overturned then appealed and so forth ever two years.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 7th, 2012, 11:50 pm 
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Jason wrote:
trekkie wrote:
The ruling was narrow and likely to be limited to California.

:/

Seems rather fishy that the ruling keeps getting overturned then appealed and so forth ever two years.

It's simply how the legal system works, Jason. You bounce from court to court, getting a ruling that one party isn't happy with, so they keep appealing to a higher court until it is finally decided by the U.S. Supreme Court. All the court did was agree with the lower court on the previous ruling. Prop 8 was already overturned by the lower court. In all likely hood, this is going to the U.S. Supreme Court where the feds are going to have the final say and states probably won't have a choice anymore depending on the decision. It's also not good that courts can overturn what the people have voted for. Washington State will probably pass *** marriage in the legislature this session, but if it does, it will definitely be going before the people on the ballot as an initiative or referendum later this year. If that fails, it'll probably go to court just like Prop 8.

Oh, and while Prop 8 is still in the court system, there is a stay on *** marriages in the state meaning they can't take place. So again, nothing has changed with this ruling still.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 8th, 2012, 1:09 am 
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It's actually moving relatively fast through the legal system, but it still has a ways to go before it reaches the Supreme Court. Nonetheless, it's a nice victory to have for the time being.

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Proposition 8 serves no purpose, and has no effect, other than to lessen the status and human dignity of gays and lesbians in California, and to officially reclassify thier relationships and families as inferior to those of opposite-sex couples. The Constitution simply does not allow for laws of this sort.

^ A line from the ruling. This gives me a lot of hope.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 8th, 2012, 1:04 pm 
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Duke Juker wrote:
It's simply how the legal system works, Jason. You bounce from court to court, getting a ruling that one party isn't happy with, so they keep appealing to a higher court until it is finally decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.


I guess I see it as very black and white. In my mind, all courts should have the same ruling since they should be unbiased and base their decisions solely off of the constitution. Although this may be an unrealistic view of humanity, it's how I naturally see things. So in turn the "bouncing from court to court" just seems like political *******.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 8th, 2012, 7:39 pm 
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Always is, and so far Jason, all courts from the lower ones, and up are coming to the same conclusion.

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 Post subject: Register and login to get these in-post ads to disappear
PostPosted: February 8th, 2012, 7:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 13th, 2012, 1:42 pm 
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I find the argument: "he's a homosexual, and so he shouldn't be able to judge this case" to be kind of odd. Of course he would have a "biased" interest toward his own personal freedoms, but how is that a bad thing? He's not trying to take away the rights of heterosexual people; he is just trying to provide equal legal rights to homosexuals.


Duke Juker wrote:
It's also not good that courts can overturn what the people have voted for.

Let's say that group X becomes a 51% majority in a state. If group X votes to enslave everyone who does not belong to group X, the courts would overturn this because it is unconstitutional (13th amendment). Similarly, Proposition 8 has been found to violate the Constitution (Due Process Clause of the 5th and 14th amendments), and it is therefore completely irrelevant that people voted for it, because it is illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 14th, 2012, 12:31 am 
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ryan1 wrote:
I find the argument: "he's a homosexual, and so he shouldn't be able to judge this case" to be kind of odd. Of course he would have a "biased" interest toward his own personal freedoms, but how is that a bad thing? He's not trying to take away the rights of heterosexual people; he is just trying to provide equal legal rights to homosexuals.


Duke Juker wrote:
It's also not good that courts can overturn what the people have voted for.

Let's say that group X becomes a 51% majority in a state. If group X votes to enslave everyone who does not belong to group X, the courts would overturn this because it is unconstitutional (13th amendment). Similarly, Proposition 8 has been found to violate the Constitution (Due Process Clause of the 5th and 14th amendments), and it is therefore completely irrelevant that people voted for it, because it is illegal.

I don't think the court would have to do anything since I doubt the 49% would stand for it regardless what the court says. And even though the judges may rule in favor of the 49%, that doesn't mean the government (presumably controlled by the 51%) would do anything about it. The thing about the judicial branch is that its rulings are only as good as the government enforcement behind them. And believe me, history has shown that both the federal government and state governments have told courts "F U" in the past. Not to get too caught up in the slavery issue, but the Civil War was also a fight between the federal and state governments for sovereignty. And when you really look at it, the states had every right to leave the Union...but that's a debate for another time.

There's a lot I could say on the issue given the fact that "marriage equality" just got signed into law by our governor today, but I'll just stick to addressing your post as briefly as possible. Simply put, I don't believe the arguments for same-sex marriage carry any weight to them. Marriage is not a right, but a privilege. On that same note, I would not be opposed to removing all government laws in regards to sanctioning marriages. Also, it's important to keep in mind that nothing stops same-sex couples (or heterosexual couples for that matter) from pursuing a relationship. You don't need a piece of paper from the government to be with or love someone last time I checked.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 14th, 2012, 1:18 am 
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Duke Juker wrote:
ryan1 wrote:
I find the argument: "he's a homosexual, and so he shouldn't be able to judge this case" to be kind of odd. Of course he would have a "biased" interest toward his own personal freedoms, but how is that a bad thing? He's not trying to take away the rights of heterosexual people; he is just trying to provide equal legal rights to homosexuals.


Duke Juker wrote:
It's also not good that courts can overturn what the people have voted for.

Let's say that group X becomes a 51% majority in a state. If group X votes to enslave everyone who does not belong to group X, the courts would overturn this because it is unconstitutional (13th amendment). Similarly, Proposition 8 has been found to violate the Constitution (Due Process Clause of the 5th and 14th amendments), and it is therefore completely irrelevant that people voted for it, because it is illegal.

I don't think the court would have to do anything since I doubt the 49% would stand for it regardless what the court says. And even though the judges may rule in favor of the 49%, that doesn't mean the government (presumably controlled by the 51%) would do anything about it. The thing about the judicial branch is that its rulings are only as good as the government enforcement behind them. And believe me, history has shown that both the federal government and state governments have told courts "F U" in the past. Not to get too caught up in the slavery issue, but the Civil War was also a fight between the federal and state governments for sovereignty. And when you really look at it, the states had every right to leave the Union...but that's a debate for another time.

There's a lot I could say on the issue given the fact that "marriage equality" just got signed into law by our governor today, but I'll just stick to addressing your post as briefly as possible. Simply put, I don't believe the arguments for same-sex marriage carry any weight to them. Marriage is not a right, but a privilege. On that same note, I would not be opposed to removing all government laws in regards to sanctioning marriages. Also, it's important to keep in mind that nothing stops same-sex couples (or heterosexual couples for that matter) from pursuing a relationship. You don't need a piece of paper from the government to be with or love someone last time I checked.



Here's the thing: marriage is not just "here's a piece of paper that says you are married in the eyes of the government." There are legal rights that come along with marriage which same-sex couples do not have access to (and so therefore the government is arbitrarily denying rights to a group of people for no reason other than the fact that they belong to that group (which is against the 5th and 14th amendments)). Regardless of the fact that entire states choose to break the law (Civil War), it's not legal, and it should be enforced as such.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 14th, 2012, 1:48 am 
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Duke Juker wrote:
You don't need a piece of paper from the government to be with or love someone last time I checked.



expect for the fact that married couples save a LOT more money and protection than those who are considered partners or bf/gf.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 14th, 2012, 8:30 pm 
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trekkie wrote:
Duke Juker wrote:
You don't need a piece of paper from the government to be with or love someone last time I checked.



expect for the fact that married couples save a LOT more money and protection than those who are considered partners or bf/gf.

Again, what does that have to do with love?

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 16th, 2012, 9:29 pm 
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okay, sorry duke. should have read the whole thing before jumping to conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 16th, 2012, 10:52 pm 
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ryan1 wrote:
Here's the thing: marriage is not just "here's a piece of paper that says you are married in the eyes of the government." There are legal rights that come along with marriage which same-sex couples do not have access to (and so therefore the government is arbitrarily denying rights to a group of people for no reason other than the fact that they belong to that group (which is against the 5th and 14th amendments)). Regardless of the fact that entire states choose to break the law (Civil War), it's not legal, and it should be enforced as such.

What rights are those btw? I've never quite fully figured that one out or heard a full explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 16th, 2012, 11:33 pm 
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Duke Juker wrote:
What rights are those btw? I've never quite fully figured that one out or heard a full explanation.



I'll do it

Quote:
To give readers a sense of the kinds of federal laws in which marital status is a factor, we
classified the laws on the list into the following 13 categories

Social Security and Related Programs, Housing, and Food Stamps
Veterans' Benefits
Taxation
Federal Civilian and Military Service Benefits
Employment Benefits and Related Laws
Immigration, Naturalization, and Aliens
Indians
Trade, Commerce, and Intellectual Property
Financial Disclosure and Conflict of Interest
Crimes and Family Violence
Loans, Guarantees, and Payments in Agriculture
Federal Natural Resources and Related Laws
Miscellaneous Laws

A collection of 1049 federal laws classified to the United States Code in which marital status
is a factor.
http://www.gao.gov/assets/230/223674.pdf
U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO)

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 Post subject: Re: prop 8 overturned
PostPosted: February 18th, 2012, 2:56 am 
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Alright, so assuming all the rights and privileges that came with being married were taken away, what other reason(s) would same-sex couples have to get married?

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