Rick Perry - Free Speech or Hate Speech?

Shane · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 8:08 pm

A Canadian newspaper here has brought up this as a discussion but quite clearly suggests what should be done.

Quote:

It only takes YouTube a few hours to pull down a video if it features copyright infringement, so maybe it's time for YouTube to take a stand and defend the rights of the *** community, and pull the plug on this discriminatory Rick Perry rant.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tec ... eech/article2264918/

Personally for me I see this as a case of free speech. Let me note a few things:
1. Perry is not outright condemning gays. We know what his position is on the issue but it's important to note that he's not perpetrating hate speech. It's not hate speech because he's not saying they should be exterminated like Hitler thought. He also doesn't say they're inferior and should be segregated like previously happened with blacks.
2. The ad is focusing on political correctness. Why shouldn't someone in school be allowed to say "Merry Christmas" or talk about their own religion?
3. Equal treatment. "[G]ays can serve openly in the military but our kids can't openly celebrate Christmas or pray in school."

Now let me be clear about a few things regarding me:
- I am not a christian, though you could say I have christian moral values.
- I can't stand the whole political correct movement. People should be able to have no fear of calling the holiday season whatever they want or saying a prayer in public.
- I do think that gays should be able to serve in the military. What greater service to a country is there than that? No one should be denied the ability to serve their country.

Adbot · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 8:08 pm

Warren · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 9:21 pm

I don't see why it should be taken down. It's very saddening that probably half the people who watch it will be like "WELL SAID!" though.

AND ONE THING THAT REALLY ANNOYS ME
Where the **** in the world can you not actually say "Merry Christmas" and stuff? Seriously, all this IT'S CHRISTMAS NOT HOLIDAY ******* you'd think it was a crisis. When in reality you probably only find teachers telling students not to mention Christmas in some extreme isolated case in some town population 50.
I'll call it the holiday season if I want to **** call it the holiday season. It's not about being politically correct, it's the fact that EVERY SINGLE PERSON gets the holidays and not every single person celebrates Christmas. I'd prefer to recognize everyone and not pretend they don't exist rather than having a false sense that I'm better than them just because I believe in Santa and flying reindeer with glowing noses or something. AGHH
Sure there is a group out there trying to get it to be called holiday tree and holiday hat and everything. There is probably a group trying to develop a drug that will evolve them into a gold fish within a day too and once they succeed the plan to put it in our water supply and turn everyone into fish. Who cares.
AND I'M PRETTY SURE YOU CAN PRAY IN SCHOOL TOO. But if you want to do it on the classes time, maybe you should be attending a religious school that will have a class or a time for it. Then again this guy while he'd fight for your right to pray in school I'm sure he'd just as soon ban all muslim religious stuff from schools.
(If there are lots of places where celebrating Christmas or doing Christian activities in school is forbidden, I wonder if it was the result of stuff like GET HANUKKAH OUT OF SCHOOL or BAN HIJABS... If it was, serves them right haha)

It's free speech but because of that + because of his homophobia you'd hope people would see it and be like, "haha what an idiot." Oh well

I didn't read the article but the quote you put I'd agree with it adjusted as:
"It only takes YouTube a few hours to pull down a video if it features copyright infringement, so it's definitely time for YouTube to take a stand and defend the rights of the *** community and all other persons by pulling discriminatory videos."
Maybe they do. Defending rights is more important than defending copyright anyways. And of the right to free speech, you no longer have rights if you infringe others' rights in the process of exercising your rights. You want to be discriminatory, you have the right to have a drug that will turn you into a gold fish put in your water supply.

(On the video, I wonder since all political people who post promo vids on YouTube disable comments, if it's just because of the inevitable direction YouTube comments go in, or at least in part want to limit people from seeing arguments against what they think l0l)

trekkie · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 9:23 pm

gays serving in the military is not the same as not allowing people to celebrate christmas in school, which so far all the schools i've been to celebrate it. every year we've had santa come into the classrooms, they always made every school christmasy for the students.

it's not a hate speech, its rather arrogant to try to compare the two.

and also, has he also forgotten that obama is christian?

the sad **** is, people would vote for him because he sent out a subliminal message about how he dislike gays and want Christianity in school.

Jason · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 9:30 pm

Although I am an atheist and a liberal, I too see it as a case of free speech. He said nothing derogatory, he was just pleading for equality that he feels he doesn't have. It's not hate speech, it's ignorant speech.

I don't know why he attacks Obama when the reason kids can't celebrate Christmas or pray in public schools is because of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Hell this guy wants to be president?

Warren wrote:

I'll call it the holiday season if I want to **** call it the holiday season. It's not about being politically correct, it's the fact that EVERY SINGLE PERSON gets the holidays and not every single person celebrates Christmas. I'd prefer to recognize everyone and not pretend they don't exist rather than having a false sense that I'm better than them just because I believe in Santa and flying reindeer with glowing noses or something.

Yes^

Duke Juker · RSBandB Donor since 07/01/2010

I'll stay on topic. It's free speech. Frankly, he makes a stupid comparison. Gays serving openly in the military and kids not being able to celebrate Christmas or pray in school are separate things that really deal with different issues. They may share the similarity of relating to political correctness, but everything is affected by that. Really, he's just making an appeal to the religious right and that is all. But to consider it hate speech? People have said and done worse things and it's still considered free speech. Hate speech has to be pretty obvious and over-the-line.

Here's a better idea. If you don't like what he's saying, then don't listen. Problem solved, right?

Lipuro · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 10:42 pm

I find it idiotic to bash a chunk of the population that can be potential supporters. He's a ****** and he will never receive a vote from me.

Adbot · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 10:42 pm

Shane · **Posted:** December 8th, 2011, 11:59 pm

Lipuro wrote:

I find it idiotic to bash a chunk of the population that can be potential supporters. He's a ****** and he will never receive a vote from me.

So is it free speech or hate speech then?

Uncle Dano · **12 99's on 12/12/12!**

It is definitely NOT hate speech. It is simply a statement in reaction to the attempt by the Liberal left to completely silence any Christian from stating their beliefs. This unfortunately is rampant these days, whereby it is only acceptable to voice one's opinion if you agree, not if you disagree. This is purely a case of free speech.

I'm sorry folks, but nowadays it seems as though Christians have become the minority that is discriminated against. There is a massive effort afoot to completely silence the Christian viewpoint, labeling it as bigotry. Whether or not you actually identify yourself as a Christian or simply identify as having Christian morals, it appears your opportunity to express your moral opinion is severely being attacked today. Don't ever say anything that expresses disagreement with a liberal viewpoint or else you will be persecuted and labelled a bigot. You might even be arrested, believe it or not. I believe that is called Fascism. And, it's real.

Everyone should be able to express one's own beliefs and opinions. In fact that is protected under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. What the Liberals forgot is that there are people who do not believe in their philosophies. They have to remember that they cannot try and silence anyone who wishes to speak up. They need to get over it, plain and simple, and stop trying to shove their particular liberalistic opinions down everyone's throats. Christians need to be able to express their opinions in a manner that is not hateful, and not condemning, but in a loving way. Just because you don't agree with an opinion, that doesn't necessarily make the expression of that opinion "hate speech". It actually might be the truth and represent what is right; however, you may not want to hear it.

The truth hurts for those that hate the truth.

That's just my own very "humble" opinion.

Iron Maiden · **Posted:** December 9th, 2011, 9:30 am

Not a hate speech, but a...unfair... comparison. Gays in army and Kids praying are two different universe. There's too many differences between a sexual orientation and a religion. However, I think what meant is the following:

-We live in a world open minded enough to accept gays in the army. But not open minded enough to allow kids to pray.

Not a hate speech at all, but more likely a scream from the heart. But personally, I don't think there's a such thing as ''hate'' speech. I mean, if you're free to speech, it implies that you're also allowed to hate, so any hate speech is free of speech. Get it?

Warren · **Posted:** December 9th, 2011, 10:36 am

Christians are hardly being discriminated against. I'm sorry, but if you're christian, you have nothing to complain about in comparison to everyone else because Christians are definitely not a minority group right now. Mild terrorism in the name (regardless of inaccuracy) of a non-Christian religion does not get a free pass and neither should (as you called it) bigotry in the name of Christianity.
Unless creating a neutral field in public schools and such where they are neither Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, etciest is discriminatory. Which I disagree and is the way it should be. Religion should only come to play in religion and history classes etc. Atheism should only come to play in sciences and such (and I don't mean teach that there is no god just as I don't mean teach that there is a god in world religions, unless it's a religious school and it's the religion class for that religion).
Something that bugs me is the whole "Christian morals" deal. Maybe not intended but every time I hear it I get the implication that you have to be religious to be moral, when a lot of "Christian morals" are just human morals. And ones that are Christian but not human, such as homophobia, I'm sorry, are not even slightly moral. If you had actual morals you wouldn't be homophobic*. You shouldn't be given a free pass on that... uh... stuff... just because it's part of your religion. And I don't mean silenced. Just don't expect not to be called out. Shunning those kinds of beliefs has nothing to do with being Christian, but everything to do with the stance and opinion you take.
I think many Christians understand that too, because they take a "God does not want me to be homosexual, but neither does he want me to judge" route.

*not an opinion since I arrive to that conclusion by the definition of moral:
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior: there are no reasons that I know of bearing any weight that make homosexuality neither right nor wrong
and the goodness or badness of human character: being your self is not bad whereas attempting to repress those who are themselves and not hurting you is bad

Of silencing the beliefs though, of course there are people trying to silence Christians. There are people trying to silence everyone. I don't understand why everyone acts like small groups trying to accomplish one thing or another form a crisis. And last I checked, North America is governed by conservative bodies (unless democrats are actually considered liberal which is pretty weird). Unless you consider things like being prosecuted for "GOD HATES ***, KILL ALL THE ***!" as silencing your beliefs.

I don't even think Rick Perry was making the comparison though. I heard it more as "Vote for me and I will eliminate *** rights and make America pure Christian". Anti-gay seemed to get Bush elected a 2nd term. XD (Or did it? I'm pretending to know about things I've only heard about HA HA).

But this guy... doesn't he know hate is a sin? AND HE CALLS HIMSELF A CHRISTIAN

Lipuro · **Posted:** December 9th, 2011, 11:12 am

Shane wrote:

Lipuro wrote:

I find it idiotic to bash a chunk of the population that can be potential supporters. He's a ****** and he will never receive a vote from me.

So is it free speech or hate speech then?

Pretty much the same thing. Hate speech is free speech but free speech isn't always hate speech.

addiv · **Posted:** December 9th, 2011, 1:16 pm

Shane wrote:

Lipuro wrote:

I find it idiotic to bash a chunk of the population that can be potential supporters. He's a ****** and he will never receive a vote from me.

So is it free speech or hate speech then?

Perry doesn't need to resort to a hate speech to get his point across. The hatred is there but it's under the surface. He hides it behind Christian morals but avoids being openly hostile. I definitely don't share his ideals but as long as he is just talking rhetoric and not violence, I'll support his right to say it.

I hope my friends out there understand that I'll gladly support their right to practice the faith of their choice. Where I won't support them is when they decide their morals have to be everyone else's. Religion is not the root of morality, society as a whole is. I have no respect for people like Perry because they meddle with morality not because they are Christian.

Duke Juker · RSBandB Donor since 07/01/2010

I think it was unfair to pin this on Obama seeing as these are problems that has been around for quite some time. Quite frankly, I'm tired of negative advertising. I know it's important to reveal the negative parts of a presidency in order to win, but candidates should focus more on their record and what they can do. We already know what the President has done and we can decide for ourselves if he has done a good job or not. What I want to know about a candidate is what they've done in the past and what they plan to do (and to stick to it if they are elected). Oh, and I try to avoid being a big stickler about social issues such as gays in the military or religion in public schools. Just get along children.

Brimmk · **Posted:** December 9th, 2011, 11:17 pm

Warren wrote:

Christians are hardly being discriminated against. I'm sorry, but if you're christian, you have nothing to complain about in comparison to everyone else because Christians are definitely not a minority group right now. Mild terrorism in the name (regardless of inaccuracy) of a non-Christian religion does not get a free pass and neither should (as you called it) bigotry in the name of Christianity.
Unless creating a neutral field in public schools and such where they are neither Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, etciest is discriminatory. Which I disagree and is the way it should be. Religion should only come to play in religion and history classes etc. Atheism should only come to play in sciences and such (and I don't mean teach that there is no god just as I don't mean teach that there is a god in world religions, unless it's a religious school and it's the religion class for that religion).
Something that bugs me is the whole "Christian morals" deal. Maybe not intended but every time I hear it I get the implication that you have to be religious to be moral, when a lot of "Christian morals" are just human morals. And ones that are Christian but not human, such as homophobia, I'm sorry, are not even slightly moral. If you had actual morals you wouldn't be homophobic*. You shouldn't be given a free pass on that... uh... stuff... just because it's part of your religion. And I don't mean silenced. Just don't expect not to be called out. Shunning those kinds of beliefs has nothing to do with being Christian, but everything to do with the stance and opinion you take.
I think many Christians understand that too, because they take a "God does not want me to be homosexual, but neither does he want me to judge" route.

*not an opinion since I arrive to that conclusion by the definition of moral:
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior: there are no reasons that I know of bearing any weight that make homosexuality neither right nor wrong
and the goodness or badness of human character: being your self is not bad whereas attempting to repress those who are themselves and not hurting you is bad

Of silencing the beliefs though, of course there are people trying to silence Christians. There are people trying to silence everyone. I don't understand why everyone acts like small groups trying to accomplish one thing or another form a crisis. And last I checked, North America is governed by conservative bodies (unless democrats are actually considered liberal which is pretty weird). Unless you consider things like being prosecuted for "GOD HATES ***, KILL ALL THE ***!" as silencing your beliefs.

I don't even think Rick Perry was making the comparison though. I heard it more as "Vote for me and I will eliminate *** rights and make America pure Christian". Anti-gay seemed to get Bush elected a 2nd term. XD (Or did it? I'm pretending to know about things I've only heard about HA HA).

But this guy... doesn't he know hate is a sin? AND HE CALLS HIMSELF A CHRISTIAN

Just a quick little response. I don't like calling myself out, but I consider myself a Christian. I go to church every sunday, I believe in God, Sin, and Redemption through the death and Resurrection of Jesus.

I would have to agree with you that the Christian demographic isn't really and truly discriminated against, especially politically (at least in the USA). At least nominal Christianity (i.e. those that for census purposes declare themselves Christian) is the largest in the USA today. I say nominal because there are plenty of people that call themselves Christian, but for all practical intents and purposes, they aren't.

Warren wrote:

And ones that are Christian but not human, such as homophobia, I'm sorry, are not even slightly moral.

I don't see homophobia as a Christian moral, because when you go back to the Bible (a novel concept for some) it really isn't.
Just for comparison, the word "love" in the New International version is used 551 times, whereas "hate" only appears 80.
Also, here are a just a few from (in my opinion) a pretty cool guy named Yeshua Bar-Joseph a.k.a. Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Joshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus the Christ (I say "the Christ because Christ was not Jesus' last name, it's a title)

Jesus wrote:

Matt. 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

Matt. 22:39 "And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ "

John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.

those are just a few.

Back to the ad:

I, personally, hate this ad. It's a wonderful example of abusing the Christian faith as a means of political gain, with nothing to add to the faith itself. All it really does is it:
a.) fires up misinformed zealots that don't actually understand what they claim to believe and what it truly means.
b.) fires up semi-misinformed zealots that don't really understand the situation and the beliefs that they purport to be against (sorry)
c.) gives extra air-time and publicity to the scumbag that doesn't deserve to be where he is and is profiteering off of the zeal of both sides of the issue.

I don't think it's hate speech, just sadly misinformed.

I also don't agree with him. I don't think that homosexuality is just fine and dandy (I know, I'm going to go under fire for that, please don't flame me), but it's something that has happened, and we need to deal with it. Everyone has rights, and whether I agree with your stance or not, I need to respect your right to say and believe what you want. I think homosexuals should be able to serve openly in the military, it's their right as citizens to volunteer their lives to protect the nation. I think *** marriage should also be allowed, because if their right to be married can't be respected and sanctioned, then how can I ever get married without that weight on my conscience that I can exercise my rights, but someone else of my same nationality and citizenship can't. Just to clarify, when I say marriage in this case, I mean it in the legal sense, of a legal and consensual binding of two independent individuals, subjecting them to the laws that apply to such a pair.

On the aspect of the "Merry Christmas" debate, I'd just rather go for "Happy Holidays". Christmas isn't the only one out there. Saying "Happy Holidays" isn't an exclusion of Christmas, but rather an inclusion of all holidays happening during the last few months of the year. The US is a pretty diverse country and we need to accept that not everyone celebrates Christmas. I'm more than happy to say "Happy Holidays" in public because I don't know what everyone out there celebrates. Really, enforcing "Merry Christmas" is just narrow-minded foolishness, and doesn't actually do anything except exclude most other holidays. Now, if you're saying "Merry Christmas" as a part of a list of holiday greetings, then fine, but you might as well say "Happy Holidays" and save yourself the trouble of trying to list all of the celebrations that go on this time of the year and risking forgetting some.

Jason · **Posted:** December 10th, 2011, 12:01 am

Very well put Brimmk. I think that is the mindset everyone needs to have, no matter what religion you practice or lack thereof.