Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)

Warren · **Posted:** November 28th, 2011, 3:45 pm

Religion is belief, your faith. Which means believing, and never stop believing, even with the odds stacked against it as a reality. I'm sorry, but to use something like that as a factor to how you treat certain people or even allowing that to be a factor in how a country is run is terrible.

Nobody is ever going to prove their religious beliefs or non religious beliefs to be real. Never. Which is something many religious people are at terms with, I'd think, and I thought a big part of religion was acknowledging that fact (unless I've missed something) yet retaining strong faith regardless. So I'm not saying you're religious beliefs are wrong and mine are right. I really don't care who is the most right or who is the most wrong, doesn't matter anyways. Throw away all religious views and there is no reason to deem homosexuality immoral. Yet acknowledging both those factors, it is okay to allow your beliefs (something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction) to dictate your treatment of certain people, to limit their rights compared to yours, and even factor in to how the country is run? No, it's not.
If you are homophobic, you are rotten. If you are homophobic because your religion, that is even worse.
And I'm not talking about religious homophobia as merely, "you're ***, that's immoral, thus I will avoid you like the plague". Whatever, that's your right and your loss. Loss both in the sense that you miss out on interactions with lots of people and that you are passing judgement where you're not allowed (depending the religion I guess). I'm talking in ways that actually affects other peoples lives, where you are striping them down (or voting in favour of it) to purposely make their lives worse where they are not infringing on anything of your own simply because you believe in something.

Your beliefs belong to you, your beliefs apply to you. If your beliefs tell you homosexuality is immoral then you can beat your self up if you're ***. But if that someone is not you, well that sucks. Too bad they don't share the same religious belief as you, since they don't apply to them.

And homophobia in political parties is most likely usually the result of religion. Makes me think even less of those parties.

.... italics italics ITALICS

Adbot · **Posted:** November 28th, 2011, 3:45 pm

Shane · **Posted:** November 28th, 2011, 4:49 pm

Driving this back to the topic (once again) is there a line in the Republican party that takes a moral value (could be any) and takes it too far? I think there's an important distinction to be made between having a moral opinion and being homophobic or downright discriminating against homosexuals?

Is this issue something that has caused the Republican party (or others) to lose their way from their original philosophy?

Brimmk · **Posted:** November 28th, 2011, 5:04 pm

I'd say that the majority of the most vocal republicans take their moral standards too far
and turn it into (by their definition) "moral law" then when one of the people that they support violate that moral law, then then either flip and make excuses for the person, or say that the moral law (that they themselves created) was ridiculous, but if an opponent makes the same mistake as their preferred person, then they attempt to verbally crucify that person.

Of course, this doesn't just apply to the Republican Party, but to humanity as a whole.

Killjoy · **Posted:** November 28th, 2011, 5:10 pm

Warren wrote:

Religion is belief, your faith. Which means believing, and never stop believing, even with the odds stacked against it as a reality. I'm sorry, but to use something like that as a factor to how you treat certain people or even allowing that to be a factor in how a country is run is terrible.

Nobody is ever going to prove their religious beliefs or non religious beliefs to be real. Never. Which is something many religious people are at terms with, I'd think, and I thought a big part of religion was acknowledging that fact (unless I've missed something) yet retaining strong faith regardless. So I'm not saying you're religious beliefs are wrong and mine are right. I really don't care who is the most right or who is the most wrong, doesn't matter anyways. Throw away all religious views and there is no reason to deem homosexuality immoral. Yet acknowledging both those factors, it is okay to allow your beliefs (something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction) to dictate your treatment of certain people, to limit their rights compared to yours, and even factor in to how the country is run? No, it's not.
If you are homophobic, you are rotten. If you are homophobic because your religion, that is even worse.
And I'm not talking about religious homophobia as merely, "you're ***, that's immoral, thus I will avoid you like the plague". Whatever, that's your right and your loss. Loss both in the sense that you miss out on interactions with lots of people and that you are passing judgement where you're not allowed (depending the religion I guess). I'm talking in ways that actually affects other peoples lives, where you are striping them down (or voting in favour of it) to purposely make their lives worse where they are not infringing on anything of your own simply because you believe in something.

Your beliefs belong to you, your beliefs apply to you. If your beliefs tell you homosexuality is immoral then you can beat your self up if you're ***. But if that someone is not you, well that sucks. Too bad they don't share the same religious belief as you, since they don't apply to them.

And homophobia in political parties is most likely usually the result of religion. Makes me think even less of those parties.

.... italics italics ITALICS

I believe the point you are trying to make is this:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

This means that YOUR religious beliefs. When they start infringing on others RIGHTS (marriage and all the benefits that come with marriage are a right) there is a problem.
Get over your homophobia and let who ever wants to marry, marry. They already can't marry within your church so why do you care?

Shane wrote:

Is this issue something that has caused the Republican party (or others) to lose their way from their original philosophy?

They are a conservative group. This is not an issue of morals. This is an issue of rights of a human being and who they love.

Shane · **Posted:** November 28th, 2011, 5:54 pm

Killjoy4eva wrote:

Shane wrote:

Is this issue something that has caused the Republican party (or others) to lose their way from their original philosophy?

They are a conservative group. This is not an issue of morals. This is an issue of rights of a human being and who they love.

Granted but shouldn't everyone be entitled to their own moral beliefs? Isn't the Republican party the party of freedom and less government intervention? With this shouldn't it go without saying that people should feel free to express whatever moral view they want in that party? Also with regards to "moral law" as Asa said, shouldn't that be looked at as one of the potential issues with the Republican party?

You say they are a "conservative group" but using that statement seems to be painting an entire group with a big brush. Surely there are moderate republicans (I would be in this camp if I was American and forced to identify with a party), by name only, who have conservative values on say the economy or foreign polcy but don't feel the need to be the morality police.

With that being said, and I think I finally got where I wanted to from my last post, is this facet of the Republican party that is adding to the problems of the US government system?

trekkie · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 1:33 am

it's both groups shane. I say we all vote for green party until we get 3 parties instead of tv full of stupid ads about how much the other guy sucks.

Adbot · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 1:33 am

Killjoy · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 8:47 am

Shane wrote:

Killjoy4eva wrote:

Shane wrote:

Is this issue something that has caused the Republican party (or others) to lose their way from their original philosophy?

They are a conservative group. This is not an issue of morals. This is an issue of rights of a human being and who they love.

Granted but shouldn't everyone be entitled to their own moral beliefs? Isn't the Republican party the party of freedom and less government intervention? With this shouldn't it go without saying that people should feel free to express whatever moral view they want in that party? Also with regards to "moral law" as Asa said, shouldn't that be looked at as one of the potential issues with the Republican party?

I agree that people should be entitled to their own moral believes. If you want to believe that it is right to imprison all those who are *** that is your right. It is "ok" and the law protects your right to believe that. Yet, if you go out and start arresting all *** people that is when your thoughts start affecting other people.
So if you believe that it is immoral to be *** or to have a *** marriage don't have sexual relations with someone of the same *** or get married. You CAN NOT tell another person that he or she can't get married because you don't like it.

Shane wrote:

You say they are a "conservative group" but using that statement seems to be painting an entire group with a big brush. Surely there are moderate republicans (I would be in this camp if I was American and forced to identify with a party), by name only, who have conservative values on say the economy or foreign polcy but don't feel the need to be the morality police.

I have to agree with this statement yet there is another feeling that I am getting with the party. If one labels themselves as a "Moderate Republican" there are attacked but the strong right claiming that they are not really Republican and that they should label themselves as such. I think this is also a large problem within the Republican party. I don't know a lot about this and could be mistaken but is just something I have observed.

Ranging God · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 12:49 pm

Killjoy4eva wrote:

I have to agree with this statement yet there is another feeling that I am getting with the party. If one labels themselves as a "Moderate Republican" there are attacked but the strong right claiming that they are not really Republican and that they should label themselves as such. I think this is also a large problem within the Republican party. I don't know a lot about this and could be mistaken but is just something I have observed.

I consider myself a moderate Republican. My Democrat friends tell me I am really a Democrat all the time, and my Republican friends tell me I am a Republican. I like being a moderate Republican, I think it has the best of both sides.

Duke Juker · RSBandB Donor since 07/01/2010

Concerning morals and beliefs.

To put it simply, you cannot separate people from their beliefs. Frankly, it doesn't matter where those beliefs come from. You can argue as much as you want that religious beliefs and morals are totally baseless (which I have a whole other argument against), but the fact remains that at the end of the day, he who holds office still has his beliefs, morals, principles, etc. He that holds office will use that belief system in making decisions that affect many people. Therefore, regardless how you feel about morals and beliefs and their place in politics, the fact remains it will always stay that way. Of course, I have an argument saying that this is a good thing and that religious and secular beliefs have their place and can be good if applied correctly...but I digress. Point is it's a fruitless argument that doesn't get anywhere.

Really what this comes down to is not the Republican party itself, but American society. Do the American people feel comfortable with people basing decisions off of their beliefs and morals? Since we can't separate people from their beliefs and morals in either party, what can be done to prevent this? Absolutely nothing...except that people can vote. The only way the people can get what they want is by voting, and with turnout below 50%, I'd hardly say the people are being represented as is. This is why I keep thinking this whole thread was completely...dumb from the start. We thinking of politics as a venue or parties and issues rather than as a means by achieving the common good. If more people voted, I'd think the country would take a turn for the better. Both the Democrats and Republicans have problems. To attack just one and not the other is again to deny the fact that the problem is with all groups involved and the whole system.

But in the end, if I were to answer your question directly Shane, I would say that yes, the Republican party is only adding more to the problem then helping to solve it. However, I have serious problems with you only going after the Republican party alone. There's plenty of blame to be shared here.

Ranging God · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 2:42 pm

Duke Juker wrote:

Concerning morals and beliefs.

To put it simply, you cannot separate people from their beliefs. Frankly, it doesn't matter where those beliefs come from. You can argue as much as you want that religious beliefs and morals are totally baseless (which I have a whole other argument against), but the fact remains that at the end of the day, he who holds office still has his beliefs, morals, principles, etc. He that holds office will use that belief system in making decisions that affect many people. Therefore, regardless how you feel about morals and beliefs and their place in politics, the fact remains it will always stay that way. Of course, I have an argument saying that this is a good thing and that religious and secular beliefs have their place and can be good if applied correctly...but I digress. Point is it's a fruitless argument that doesn't get anywhere.

Really what this comes down to is not the Republican party itself, but American society. Do the American people feel comfortable with people basing decisions off of their beliefs and morals? Since we can't separate people from their beliefs and morals in either party, what can be done to prevent this? Absolutely nothing...except that people can vote. The only way the people can get what they want is by voting, and with turnout below 50%, I'd hardly say the people are being represented as is. This is why I keep thinking this whole thread was completely...dumb from the start. We thinking of politics as a venue or parties and issues rather than as a means by achieving the common good. If more people voted, I'd think the country would take a turn for the better. Both the Democrats and Republicans have problems. To attack just one and not the other is again to deny the fact that the problem is with all groups involved and the whole system.

But in the end, if I were to answer your question directly Shane, I would say that yes, the Republican party is only adding more to the problem then helping to solve it. However, I have serious problems with you only going after the Republican party alone. There's plenty of blame to be shared here.

For instance, consider the Left's beliefs on abortion. I find it disgusting for a mother to abort a child, and I refuse to date any girl who would abort a child if we I were to get her pregnant. As a Republican, anti-abortion beliefs are fundamental when choosing a candidate.

Shane · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 3:24 pm

I only chose the Republican party because they're the ones with the uphill battle in 2012. There's no stellar candidate and everyone should know that the incumbent always has an easier time than someone new. I also chose them because that's who the article was going after. I believe I also said in my first post that I'm not a fan of the US political system either

.

But I like where this topic is going. It's not completely dumb because it has over 20 replies now. Where's your topic with over 20 real replies Dan?

In regards to what you said about voting and why people don't care. Maybe if the Republican party was to suffer a humiliating defeat (won't happen) they'd next elect someone that makes people want to vote. Chances of that happening in either party is slim though. Now that brings up the next question, what about reforming the system? We've already made it clear that the Republican party is broken and there are elements that are out of control. You guys say the Democrats have some of the same issues. I say your entire system has issues. Reform the system in such a way that the representatives, senators, and president are accountable to the people that brought them in and no their own corporate interests?

Or maybe just reform it in a different way?

Ranging God · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 3:27 pm

Shane wrote:

I only chose the Republican party because they're the ones with the uphill battle in 2012. There's no stellar candidate and everyone should know that the incumbent always has an easier time than someone new. I also chose them because that's who the article was going after. I believe I also said in my first post that I'm not a fan of the US political system either

.

But I like where this topic is going. It's not completely dumb because it has over 20 replies now. Where's your topic with over 20 real replies Dan?

In regards to what you said about voting and why people don't care. Maybe if the Republican party was to suffer a humiliating defeat (won't happen) they'd next elect someone that makes people want to vote. Chances of that happening in either party is slim though. Now that brings up the next question, what about reforming the system? We've already made it clear that the Republican party is broken and there are elements that are out of control. You guys say the Democrats have some of the same issues. I say your entire system has issues. Reform the system in such a way that the representatives, senators, and president are accountable to the people that brought them in and no their own corporate interests?

Or maybe just reform it in a different way?

Well Shane, I believe that is in the progress of happening. I like to think the election last year was something of a victory of both parties, getting old people out of congress and the senate and getting new people in. Also, like I mentioned before, I have been working with several Republican Candidates for the US Senate and they're fired up about getting Democrats and Republicans out of office, and let a new breathe of Republicans in, one's who will focus more on small business and the lower class.

Duke Juker · RSBandB Donor since 07/01/2010

Shane wrote:

I only chose the Republican party because they're the ones with the uphill battle in 2012. There's no stellar candidate and everyone should know that the incumbent always has an easier time than someone new. I also chose them because that's who the article was going after. I believe I also said in my first post that I'm not a fan of the US political system either

.

But I like where this topic is going. It's not completely dumb because it has over 20 replies now. Where's your topic with over 20 real replies Dan?

In regards to what you said about voting and why people don't care. Maybe if the Republican party was to suffer a humiliating defeat (won't happen) they'd next elect someone that makes people want to vote. Chances of that happening in either party is slim though. Now that brings up the next question, what about reforming the system? We've already made it clear that the Republican party is broken and there are elements that are out of control. You guys say the Democrats have some of the same issues. I say your entire system has issues. Reform the system in such a way that the representatives, senators, and president are accountable to the people that brought them in and no their own corporate interests?

Or maybe just reform it in a different way?

Check the sandbox for the topic.

Anyways, that was exactly my point that it's the system as a whole and not just one party or the other. There is a way that elected officials are "accountable" to the people. It's called voting. That's why I'm harping on about voting. Voting is how you get people out and get people in. Voting is how you check the interests of politicians and corporate and lobbying interests. It's how you check the feelings and emotions and beliefs of the country. The problem with our American "experiment" is that people are no longer involved. They don't understand the value of voting in this country (or really any modern democracy). One of two things needs to happen. 1) Take away the freedoms of the people until they learn the value of them or 2) require people to vote. If I had it my way, I'd rather take away peoples' freedoms first until they learn the value of them and then give them back. Requiring people to vote won't ensure they vote and it sure as hell won't work if people don't inform themselves and care about voting rather than going through the motions or accepting the first thing they hear. Of course, no one wants their freedoms taken away, but I'd be willing to be the sacrificial lamb to do it to bring back sense to the American political system.

Jason · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 5:59 pm

Ranging God wrote:

For instance, consider the Left's beliefs on abortion. I find it disgusting for a mother to abort a child, and I refuse to date any girl who would abort a child if we I were to get her pregnant. As a Republican, anti-abortion beliefs are fundamental when choosing a candidate.

Just wanted to post a small argument against this point. Personally, I am not opposed to abortion, but I have no problem with someone with beliefs like yourself wanting to keep a child they have, no matter what the circumstances are. What I have a problem with is that a law making abortion illegal prevents half "the liberal half" shall we call it, from getting what they want. If abortion was allowed, it would not affect you in the slightest. You could still "refuse to date any girl who would abort a child," and those who are fine with the practice of abortion would get what they want as well. Everybody still wins.

This is the biggest problem I have with a lot of political topics, one side, (more often the Republicans, at least to my knowledge), support the prohibition of actions that even if allowed, would not affect the "other side" in the slightest.

Ranging God · **Posted:** November 29th, 2011, 6:42 pm

nikeballa435 wrote:

Ranging God wrote:

For instance, consider the Left's beliefs on abortion. I find it disgusting for a mother to abort a child, and I refuse to date any girl who would abort a child if we I were to get her pregnant. As a Republican, anti-abortion beliefs are fundamental when choosing a candidate.

Just wanted to post a small argument against this point. Personally, I am not opposed to abortion, but I have no problem with someone with beliefs like yourself wanting to keep a child they have, no matter what the circumstances are. What I have a problem with is that a law making abortion illegal prevents half "the liberal half" shall we call it, from getting what they want. If abortion was allowed, it would not affect you in the slightest. You could still "refuse to date any girl who would abort a child," and those who are fine with the practice of abortion would get what they want as well. Everybody still wins.

This is the biggest problem I have with a lot of political topics, one side, (more often the Republicans, at least to my knowledge), support the prohibition of actions that even if allowed, would not affect the "other side" in the slightest.

I just have a problem with a woman being able to kill whats half mine =\