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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 4th, 2011, 12:43 am 
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I think some of you are a little too hard on Jagex for expecting bots to get banned so soon. Delaying bans like Valve's VAC can be a good way to do it.

It ensures that:
  1. Only people who they are completely sure are macroing are banned. A lot of actions in the game are very repetitive and could be hard to detect whether they are generated by a person or a macro. For example when high alching, if someone is using mouse keys for their clicking (which is allowed), this could seem very bot like with the mouse not moving because bots could also be programmed to wait a semi-random amount of time between clicks.
  2. It is hard for macro writers and users to know exactly what got them detected so it is harder for them to adapt and remain undetected.
  3. More cheaters get banned. Because the users of the macro aren't banned so soon, they get their friends or other cheaters to use the software as well which also results in their eventual ban. More cheaters easily detected by using the same software and banned = good.

Of course it also has it's downsides as well, mostly that it appears to the public that they are doing very little against the problem. I often do think there is more they could be doing as well. They delay (or maybe just can't even detect the bots) for bans for way too long. An account that was created to bot only one skill shouldn't be able to get it into the 90s. They also seem to need to do more in stopping the transfer of money from mule accounts.

You can't say Jagex is doing nothing though because they clearly are. Sometimes on the high scores you can see when a massive amount of bans take place. June 1st had a decent amount of people banned, you can see by going to anyones progress on the rsbandb high scores and checking ranks gained where no XP was gained (or even just less ranks lost than on average days if less were banned). Some of bonsai's skills are quite decent so those were some high level bots who were banned.


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 Post subject: Register and login to get these in-post ads to disappear
PostPosted: June 4th, 2011, 12:43 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 4th, 2011, 7:39 am 
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Jagex can only do so much at any given time. They're already banning bots as fast as they can. Think about it this way: There are at least a thousand abuse reports (probably much more) every day per member of the anti-bot team. That means each one of the members of the anti-bot team would have to research over a thousand accounts that could possibly be bots.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 4th, 2011, 7:49 am 
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Mike wrote:
I think some of you are a little too hard on Jagex for expecting bots to get banned so soon. Delaying bans like Valve's VAC can be a good way to do it.


Mike wrote:
You can't say Jagex is doing nothing though because they clearly are. Sometimes on the high scores you can see when a massive amount of bans take place. June 1st had a decent amount of people banned, you can see by going to anyones progress on the rsbandb high scores and checking ranks gained where no XP was gained (or even just less ranks lost than on average days if less were banned). Some of bonsai's skills are quite decent so those were some high level bots who were banned.


1. I just hope more bans appear for the other bots if Jagex actually does do delayed bans, or maybe they just don't have enough customer support to deal with all of the reports :P

2. I'm guessing Jagex posted on the Moderator Forums that they just had a massive ban wave =P

And also Mike, is it possible for you to do a similar experiment? Since Pmod reports have priority and Jagex probably looks at them more in depth I would really like to see the kind of results you get, or any other pmod on here.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 4th, 2011, 2:35 pm 
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Nice seeing they've started banning some of those :P


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 4th, 2011, 4:21 pm 
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Only two banned? Does Jagex even care that Runescape is dieing?

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 1:20 am 
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bonsai99 wrote:
2. I'm guessing Jagex posted on the Moderator Forums that they just had a massive ban wave =P


PMods actually get very little news about what they are doing besides those bot busts they do which most of are also open to non-pmods. I noticed this myself on our high scores.

bonsai99 wrote:
And also Mike, is it possible for you to do a similar experiment? Since Pmod reports have priority and Jagex probably looks at them more in depth I would really like to see the kind of results you get, or any other pmod on here.


I reported 55 bots today and their names are below.

Spoiler for Bots reported for those who are interested:

no longer updating this since jul 7

Varrock Rune/Pure Essence Bots
1. Screenshot - Dream 1560
2. Screenshot - dfhtilsrfhcv
3. Screenshot - Cripswalker8
4. Screenshot - Xtcweed - banned on/before Jun 23
5. Screenshot - Wyrmfeastox - banned on/before Jun 11
6. Screenshot - sxcpureii - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
7. Screenshot - rtqeff - banned on/before Jun 11
8. Screenshot - Omega 2438
9. Screenshot - Skiller23xx - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
10. Screenshot - Masksavepwn - banned on/before Jun 11
11. Screenshot - Enchant 1894 - banned on/before Jun 23
12. Screenshot - Devout 1982
13. Screenshot - woeuirfhds
14. Screenshot - Wish 2886
15. Screenshot - opJCOjvfwjvw - banned on/before Jun 14
16. Screenshot - 95 Mine Bob
17. Screenshot - kjyikuku
18. Screenshot - Beiafsa
19. Screenshot - Lunar 2364 - banned on/before Jun 11
20. Screenshot - sdgsdhsdh - banned on/before Jun 11
21. Screenshot - Page928179
22. Screenshot - Farming 2715
23. Screenshot - kjbg8tg89uiv
24. Screenshot - Darth Xerx - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
25. Screenshot - ieihgoa - banned on/before Jun 23

Chaos Tunnels Green Dragon Bots
26. Screenshot - Shylyrage95
27. Screenshot - bbgdghjj
28. Screenshot - lierlqwsfsda
29. Screenshot - MDMA MDEA - banned on/before Jul 7
30. Screenshot - Uiyjik - banned on/before Jun 14
31. Screenshot - Harvzdude - banned on/before Jun 11
32. Screenshot - Tompacey
33. Screenshot - jackiy
34. Screenshot - unblestking1 - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
35. Screenshot - 49 Club Max
36. Screenshot - Fireguy650 - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
37. Screenshot - Diamond 1709 - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
38. Screenshot - marrckey
39. Screenshot - wusuli3
40. Screenshot - Ghostflame2 - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
41. Screenshot - Dyer Red
42. Screenshot - jinwutuanliv
43. Screenshot - hugogo
44. Screenshot - peteouc - banned on/before Jun 23
45. Screenshot - piqiulovecom
46. Screenshot - ewew23
47. Screenshot - zhangziyiliv
48. Screenshot - Anger1799
49. Screenshot - Sod 666 - banned on/before Jun 23 - Unbanned with reduced stats on/before Jul 7
50. Screenshot - Magnatejh
51. Screenshot - Iirush K0
52. Screenshot - Abyssal2967 - banned on/before Jul 7
53. Screenshot - Braverylynx
54. Screenshot - Valiant 2007
55. Screenshot - BruutalWang


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 Post subject: Register and login to get these in-post ads to disappear
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 1:20 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 4:45 am 
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Great work - Please keep going.

It reminds me of the time I tackled fishing bots and manually tracking such accounts is a crucial element in getting Jagex to take action.

If nobody can see if they are trying or not then why do they need to try? With transparency comes the need for visible action to be taken.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 7:53 am 
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Mike wrote:
Alright, but I can't list their names. I reported 55 bots today and will report back on this thread how many of them are banned in a while.


Wow, you are making my work look like nothing >.< and secondly why can't you post their names?

Edit: Just checked through the list of names again and Sods Guy 6 is no longer banned but has had his account rolled back.
(ALL of his xp was cut in half)

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 9:02 am 
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Why are they even giving bots a second chance? Permanent ban please.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 12:03 pm 
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Cliff Dude wrote:
Why are they even giving bots a second chance? Permanent ban please.


Agreed, make them start over and then they will have learnt their lesson.
Unless its a goldfarmer, they don't really care that much if they get perm banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 3:02 pm 
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Cappeh wrote:
Great work - Please keep going.

It reminds me of the time I tackled fishing bots and manually tracking such accounts is a crucial element in getting Jagex to take action.

If nobody can see if they are trying or not then why do they need to try? With transparency comes the need for visible action to be taken.

'CaP


Welcome back! Been a long time since I've seen you on here. :P

You're right, I've added the names and a link to check above.


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 3:41 pm 
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Cliff Dude wrote:
Why are they even giving bots a second chance? Permanent ban please.


Ok you have 2300 total and you get 93 runecrafting and then are like OH MY GOD I WANT 99 BUT THIS IS SO REPETITIVE, BORING, AND LONG AND I DON'T HAVE THE TIME LOL IM GUNNA MACRO HAHAHA NOT LIKE JAGEX DOES ANYTHING ABOUT IT, and then you macro 99 and then you're all happy then the next day your runecrafting level is rolled back to 40 and your bank rolled back double what you made from Runecraft and maybe some non macroed stats rolled back as well. That seems a lot worse than getting permanently banned. Because if you were macroing, you don't care enough to start over, if you get banned you're morel like "whatever" and you're done playing. But if you get rolled back like that, you just lost a lot of your time for something you're going to continue. And any punishment that makes you keep playing RS, that's pretty harsh.


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 6:30 pm 
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It is good to be back on here Mike, I did quit for many years but I have been listening in on the podcast and occasionally browsing the forum. I am back playing now though and will no doubt be more active on here now.

Back on topic- The whole rollback thing defeats the most important part of banning accounts.

It is not just about the punishment received by the person cheating.....It is (more importantly in my view) the deterrent it acts as to put others off even considering it.

"If you cheat you may lose some xp and cash if caught OR may gain lots of xp and cash"

vs

"If you cheat then if caught you WILL be perm banned and lose everything"


The sheer quantity of dice and flower games should tell you how the majority of the RS population feels about gambling, consider the two choices above in that light and you can see why there was such an explosion in cheating as well as such a huge drop in morals.

The integrity of the game encompasses everything. Once you relax your attitude in one area people expect the same in all other areas and things rapidly get worse.

Simple solution and the wisest move Jagex could make is to announce a zero tolerance policy a few weeks in advance and then follow it up. Anyone greedy enough to carry on after being warned will get what they deserve. There is (as has been mentioned) a huge difference between those botting (on mains or throwaways) and goldfarmers, but the impact that each has is exactly the same.

Do not fall into the trap of thinking that bots are essential for low priced resources. The Jagex economy balanced much more effectively without bots and player sourced supply will rapidly fill any gap. Resource prices will increase short term but everyone benefits from that long term.

Merchers make the problem seem more dramatic than it is.

'CaP

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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 5th, 2011, 10:01 pm 
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People who macro to get higher levels do it to get to a position where they are better than when they started. If by doing it they are going to end up in a position where they are worse off then when they started, that is pretty deterrent. If you're macroing in the first place you probably don't care enough about your account that getting banned isn't going to deter it - it's just a reason to quit. Maybe it's just me but at this point, I would be devastated had I been rolled back. If I was banned well whatever (had I been macroing that is, not another illegitimate ban).
Because if I spend 50 hours training a skill and then macro it for 30 hours and the next day I'm rolled back 75 hours time, I just lost 45 hours of legitimate work on something I'm going to continue. Say I put 1000 hours into my account overall, if it gets banned I "lost" 1000 hours. But do those hours mean anything? Not really since I will be done with it, the hours remain a memory of "fun" times, not time I'll have to recover.

But for whether macroers deserve a second chance, well yeah? If 98% of their account was trained legitimately it's not like they should loose it all. They macroed in a game where who is the best is determined by who plays the most, get over it XD. Everyone does dumb things, taking it away entirely doesn't fit the crime in the first place (and as said before is softer anyways). In terms of what they take away from other players, it's not them who are the problem. Doesn't mean it should be tolerated though.


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 Post subject: Re: Dealing with Bots - An Experiment
PostPosted: June 8th, 2011, 7:06 pm 
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808HiLyF Banned, only 3 have been banned/rolled back so far and none of them were the bots that were stuck.

Do you guys actually believe that Jagex has an automated macro detection system?

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