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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 7:48 pm 
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I was thinking about this, Ranging God says the "left" believes that people should have the choice to abort a child. While the Nikeballa feels that the "right" prevents those on the left from doing what they want even if it's not harming the person on the "right" making the decision. I don't want this to turn into a debate on "right" vs. "left" or pro-life vs. pro-choice. I want this to be about the system involved in making these decisions. Everyone has their own view and no one's will be changing here.

What I want to ask, is all the rhetoric that goes around on issues such as *** rights or abortion, what role taxes play, or even a wider view of how much of a part government should play part of the problem with the system? Does that prevent things from getting done in your government? And maybe if more things got done, would people have a more favourable view and ultimately go out and vote more often? (I think I covered what the three of you said, Ranging God, Nikeballa, and Dukey)

PS: Sandbox doesn't count (if I could find it), that's the belly lint area.

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PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 7:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 10:28 pm 
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Shane wrote:
I was thinking about this, Ranging God says the "left" believes that people should have the choice to abort a child. While the Nikeballa feels that the "right" prevents those on the left from doing what they want even if it's not harming the person on the "right" making the decision. I don't want this to turn into a debate on "right" vs. "left" or pro-life vs. pro-choice. I want this to be about the system involved in making these decisions. Everyone has their own view and no one's will be changing here.

What I want to ask, is all the rhetoric that goes around on issues such as *** rights or abortion, what role taxes play, or even a wider view of how much of a part government should play part of the problem with the system? Does that prevent things from getting done in your government? And maybe if more things got done, would people have a more favourable view and ultimately go out and vote more often? (I think I covered what the three of you said, Ranging God, Nikeballa, and Dukey)

PS: Sandbox doesn't count (if I could find it), that's the belly lint area.


Yes Shane, it does make things harder to get passed, but I think that is good and bad.

The bad is politicians will not pass bills because they want to be reelected. They ignore what they feel is right or wrong, or even the morals and voting idea they presented during their past election time. The good, things seems to not be passed that could offend/take away right of many American people.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 11:51 pm 
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Shane wrote:
I was thinking about this, Ranging God says the "left" believes that people should have the choice to abort a child. While the Nikeballa feels that the "right" prevents those on the left from doing what they want even if it's not harming the person on the "right" making the decision. I don't want this to turn into a debate on "right" vs. "left" or pro-life vs. pro-choice. I want this to be about the system involved in making these decisions. Everyone has their own view and no one's will be changing here.

What I want to ask, is all the rhetoric that goes around on issues such as *** rights or abortion, what role taxes play, or even a wider view of how much of a part government should play part of the problem with the system? Does that prevent things from getting done in your government? And maybe if more things got done, would people have a more favourable view and ultimately go out and vote more often? (I think I covered what the three of you said, Ranging God, Nikeballa, and Dukey)

PS: Sandbox doesn't count (if I could find it), that's the belly lint area.

I think I see what your getting at. In a sense, my solution to such a problem is more local government. The more localized government is, the better it can deal with specific issues. It's easier to get a consensus on abortion or *** rights with fewer people (say 2500 or even 250,000) rather than 300+ million. In this way, you can make better decisions and, through collection of taxes at a local level, you could please more people. I don't think the government should play as big a role in social issues as people think it does or should. If anything, it should be left to individual states to decide unless the issue involves multiple states and the common good of the country. Granted, some noob comes along and says "Well abortion does affect multiple states." Sure, it can be viewed that way, but in my mind, each state should have the right to determine it's own laws and rules regarding abortion or really any social issue.

When America was founded in 1776, states held a lot of power and competed against each other. The federal governments only purpose was to serve as common ground where states could come together and deal with issues that affected all of them (revolution, shared currency, etc.). The federal government overtime has come to be much more influential and interfering when it comes to laws regarding states and what they can and can not do.

In my perfect world, states would have as much power as the federal government has now, but used locally within the state. The federal government would go back to serving as a unifying body for all the states for economic and military purposes, bot not a deciding or binding body for social purposes (eg. healthcare, abortion, *** rights, death penalty). Unless a specific issue could not be settled between the states, but was important to the well being of the states and/or the country as a whole, then the federal government could step in.

Bottom line: States are mini countries and the federal government should only help them get along.

Sandbox counts. You didn't say it couldn't be a sandbox thread, so ha.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 29th, 2011, 11:53 pm 
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The last time states had that much power the Civil War happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 12:14 am 
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Cliff Dude wrote:
The last time states had that much power the Civil War happened.

Hmm. Doesn't seem to be an easy way out of this one without saying something someone won't like.

A major underlying cause for the war was the issue of states' rights vs. federal rights. Also, I think people (at least in the US) have universally accepted that slavery is bad (not to mention its prohibited in the Constitution). In other words: context, context, context.

The war wasn't started over abolition initially, but rather the threat of it. The problem with slavery is that it was important to Southerners in maintaining their way of life and surviving. Essentially, the government was going to deprive them of their means of survival. Was not the government supposed to protect its citizens rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or property as it was first phrased)?" How would you feel if someone showed up to your work today and said "You can't do this job anymore because it's illegal now"? Probably wouldn't be happy now would you.

What I mean to say is that the Civil War wasn't a bad thing in terms of why it was fought (the loss of life was of course a horrible thing). It was fought over an important and divisive issue in the country at the time that needed to be dealt with. Still, I don't have a situation like that now. Slavery was unique as a civil rights issue, which is something that the government is also supposed to protect and which took priority over Southern citizens (namely farmers) and their right to survive and make a livelyhood. In this case, one group was not given civil rights or even recognized as people, but rather property. The point is we don't have a similar issue like that now facing the country and giving states more power would not bring about a civil war. I don't think that if states had that much power again that a civil war would break out (if for the only reason that Americans would be too lazy to fight a war).

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 6:50 am 
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Here's how the problem can be fixed. Rather than re-assigning these issues to the states why not change the way the system works?

Whip the votes that deal with money (meaning you must vote with your party or sit as an independent/change party if you vote differently). This will ensure that a party takes a unified stance on an issue and members can't just be creating different facets of one party. For example the Tea Party republicans would split away from the mainstream Republicans if they didn't agree with the way their leader (John Boehner now) wanted them to vote. Same would go if Democrats felt differently than their leader (Nancy Pelosi) did.

Secondly make it so the Senate can't radically change a bill. The Senate should have no more input than providing changes and sending the bill back if it's not up to standard. The same voting restrictions as mentioned previously would apply in the Senate.

Finally, make it so that the President can't create laws, the President is the head of the executive, that's all he should be doing. He can set the tone of the session of Congress but that's it.

With this Congress would actually be forced to get something done since their necks would be on the line as a party next time. Deliberate attempts at sabotage would be stopped since it'd be party vs. party not party vs. party vs. president. This would also be good because it would diversify the entire political system and allow for other parties to make a comeback.

The President of course will lose some power in that he'd be largely ceremonial but that's where the threat comes in. NOTE: The President would still be able to veto if the bill was unconstitutional or violated some other clause. If he can't get Congress on his side, should he really be elected again? He should be making sure his vision matches that of one of the potential leaders of Congress in a campaign.

PS: This is really just a pipe dream, it'd never happen. It's somewhat similar to the French government in some aspects. The mere fact that something like this would never happen proves the system is broken. It's the 21st century, your government is not going to be overthrown. You don't need all the checks and balances you created when your nation was born.

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PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 6:50 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 1:36 pm 
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Shane wrote:
Here's how the problem can be fixed. Rather than re-assigning these issues to the states why not change the way the system works?

Whip the votes that deal with money (meaning you must vote with your party or sit as an independent/change party if you vote differently). This will ensure that a party takes a unified stance on an issue and members can't just be creating different facets of one party. For example the Tea Party republicans would split away from the mainstream Republicans if they didn't agree with the way their leader (John Boehner now) wanted them to vote. Same would go if Democrats felt differently than their leader (Nancy Pelosi) did.

Secondly make it so the Senate can't radically change a bill. The Senate should have no more input than providing changes and sending the bill back if it's not up to standard. The same voting restrictions as mentioned previously would apply in the Senate.

Finally, make it so that the President can't create laws, the President is the head of the executive, that's all he should be doing. He can set the tone of the session of Congress but that's it.

With this Congress would actually be forced to get something done since their necks would be on the line as a party next time. Deliberate attempts at sabotage would be stopped since it'd be party vs. party not party vs. party vs. president. This would also be good because it would diversify the entire political system and allow for other parties to make a comeback.

The President of course will lose some power in that he'd be largely ceremonial but that's where the threat comes in. NOTE: The President would still be able to veto if the bill was unconstitutional or violated some other clause. If he can't get Congress on his side, should he really be elected again? He should be making sure his vision matches that of one of the potential leaders of Congress in a campaign.

PS: This is really just a pipe dream, it'd never happen. It's somewhat similar to the French government in some aspects. The mere fact that something like this would never happen proves the system is broken. It's the 21st century, your government is not going to be overthrown. You don't need all the checks and balances you created when your nation was born.

First off, I think the system in place is fine, but could do with some minor changes (none of which are similar).

I don't agree with forcing people to vote with their party. I'd rather be an independent then forced to vote with the Republican party. In all honesty, the Tea Partyers should be their own party. What I like about the British and Canadian systems is that there are some separate parties aside from the Liberals and Conservatives. I think that is more important than forcing people in the party to vote. The other problem is that regardless of what the party wants you to do or the threats it makes, you'll probably get re-elected anyway if your constituents like you. So first, we should have more independents and more parties. We could probably use some more bi-partisanship as well.

I don't agree the Senate shouldn't be able to make changes. If that were the case, it would just become like the defunct House of Lords in Britain. What purpose would the Senate have at that point if they couldn't make major changes? What really needs to happen is that senators need to go back to being selected by state legislatures, not the people. In that way, senators have the interests of the state in mind and don't have to worry about pleasing people which is the major concern they face and why they make major changes. In a sense, senators have become House representatives since they are elected by the people.

The President doesn't create laws. He has executive orders and the responsibility of carrying out laws passed by Congress, but no law making status. With that problem, Congress must make laws and take power back away from the executive. If Congress doesn't do anything, then it's left to the president to make all the decisions and rules.

The "real" problem to me is the media. The media focuses more on the president than on Congress. Congress usually has a lower approval rating than the president, yet the president gets all the press, the fame, the glory for something done. If the media focuses more on Congress, I think you would see a lot more changes and less focus on the power of the president.

What you want is a British system, but that's not going to fly. The constitution designed the executive, legislative, and judicial branches to separate out power, not consolidate it. You are recommending consolidation which in my mind as a conservative does not bode well. I'm confused as to why you would support such a position with your views except that that is the type of government you live under now. I really don't think it's any better.

The president is not supposed to be ceremonial. There are a lot of things in government that need one person to make all the decisions and not 535 men and women trying to agree. How would you decide when to use nuclear missiles, carry out a war, make treaties with other countries, etc? The executive serves a much larger purpose than what you think. Reducing his power would bring on a lot more problems and probably not solve much in the end.

In truth, the system is designed on checks and balances and separation of powers, both of which are good principles. You wish to remove both and consolidate most power into Congress. But if Congress is already messed up, how do you expect it to get better with more power? Doesn't really make sense.

The fact it wouldn't happen is common sense, not proof that the system is broken. Not only would it go against everything in the Constitution, it would completely change the face of American democracy (most likely for the worst). Checks and balances as well as the separation of powers is necessary to a successful democracy. It's the people in those elected positions and the people who vote (or don't vote) that are the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 1:44 pm 
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In my perfect world, states would have as much power as the federal government has now, but used locally within the state. The federal government would go back to serving as a unifying body for all the states for economic and military purposes, bot not a deciding or binding body for social purposes (eg. healthcare, abortion, *** rights, death penalty). Unless a specific issue could not be settled between the states, but was important to the well being of the states and/or the country as a whole, then the federal government could step in.


sounds more like a government that wants to protect america's interest, and not american people.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 1:53 pm 
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I don't see how. It's a government that deals with issues too big for just the states to handle. The way you phrase it is ambiguous. First, isn't protecting the people an American interest? Second, isn't protecting some interests protecting the American people sometimes?

Again, it depends on how you define "protecting the American people" and what that looks like. To me, the federal government should protect its peoples' rights and freedoms namely through national security. Beyond that, if people are safe and sound and free to pursue their ambitions and dreams, the government has no further role. If everyone is on the same footing, why should the government get involved?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 3:47 pm 
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Just compare what the British/Canadian system has done to combat the recession compared to the US government. Your system doesn't work. Your economy is still faltering. Our economies have rebounded, our unemployment rates are lower, we didn't need to spend as much on recovery as you guys did.

The point I wanted to get across, to put it simply, is that the checks and balances of your government interfere. We do just fine here with fewer checks and balances. Democracies in Europe get by just fine too. It seems like the US likes to over complicate things. Thus it is your system that is at fault. And if you can't see that because you're trumpeting the constitution and that "separation of powers is necessary to a successful democracy" you're a part of the problem.

Dan, if no one else chimes in here we really should discuss this in another venue.

With that being said does anyone else have ideas on how you could make the system more efficient?

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 10:19 pm 
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I think the congresspeople should decide on issues based on how they personally feel about it, rather than how it would be in line with their party, or if the decision would get them re-elected.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 11:11 pm 
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Cliff Dude wrote:
I think the congresspeople should decide on issues based on how they personally feel about it, rather than how it would be in line with their party, or if the decision would get them re-elected.


What if they just had to vote with the party on issues that required new funding? That's often how it works here. Depending on the issue if it's not a money bill the MPs may be able to free vote.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: November 30th, 2011, 11:58 pm 
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If all congresspeople were required to unanimously vote as a party, then there will never be a 2/3's majority, and anything that requires a simple majority will be unbalanced.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: December 1st, 2011, 12:27 am 
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Cliff Dude wrote:
If all congresspeople were required to unanimously vote as a party, then there will never be a 2/3's majority, and anything that requires a simple majority will be unbalanced.


And that's also why there needs to be more parties. That way someone would have a majority. If people don't like their parties stance on a budget, swap.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on the Republican Party (US)
PostPosted: December 1st, 2011, 12:37 am 
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Shane wrote:
Cliff Dude wrote:
If all congresspeople were required to unanimously vote as a party, then there will never be a 2/3's majority, and anything that requires a simple majority will be unbalanced.


And that's also why there needs to be more parties. That way someone would have a majority. If people don't like their parties stance on a budget, swap.


Your mention of the elimination of public parties has me thinking. I feel like this would also have a possibility of improving the presidential race. Instead of focusing on finding the best "democrat" and "republican" then putting them up against each other in a popularity contest, we would focus purely on the candidate's opinions, which vary a large amount even within the party they come from in today's system, rather than the, superficial shall we say, party they are a part of.

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