My thoughts on Religion

I would disagree... saying "well the Bible says it so it must be true" is the lazy way... I base my belief on the ability to be a free thinking human being, not just another sheep in the flock... it is far harder being an athirst having the religious majority always scoffing at you.

The united states is not a nation under good, it is a nation under whatever an individual wants it to be...

For the record I'm not an atheist.. I'm agnostic

I don't know too many atheists or agnostics who have gotten scoffed at, but plenty of people persecuted for religion. It happens more so and more blatantly outside the US.

And I'm not just saying faith alone is good enough. It's not just throwing your hands in the air and saying "Oh the Bible says so, so it must be true" or "The preacher said so, so it must be true." It's having faith despite trying your hardest to understand or discover if God exists. It's easier to say their is no God in the sense that no one can bring him down here and show him to you. Because you can't see God's existence or fully prove it, you must depend on faith to fill in the gap. But for an atheist, they can just say "You can't see God or show me he exists, therefore he must not exist." That's all they have to say and what their belief boils down to: no proof of the existence of God. Seems like a much easier position to reach than believing in something you can't even see or feel.

To put it simply, the burden of proof lies on the religious person, not the atheist. There is more scientific and empirical "proof" for the non-existence of God rather than for his existence, meaning that you can't fully prove or show the existence of God. Hence, it is much easier to be on the side asking for proof than the one providing it. So, atheists have it much easier in my mind. Also, the mark or test of a truly religious person is that he does not just take what he believes on faith, but goes further to live his life in such a way as to reflect his beliefs. It is one thing to say you have faith and believe in something and something else entirely to actually live a life reflecting those views. You take about a religious person who doesn't walk the walk. What would you say about the ones who do walk the walk and take religion very seriously?

And I'm not trying to say atheists are taking the easy position because it is easy. And I never used the word lazy to describe atheists either. Easy =/= Lazy. They just so happen to believe in something that is easier to prove than religion. That's all I'm meaning to say. If you just take something on faith without works or walking the walk, that is lazy.

Faith isn't completely blind though you may think it so. And religion isn't just a place for bad ideas to form and wreck havoc on society. Your examples are very specific, but also limited in application to all religion.

If people actually read the Bible, then they would know Harold Camping is full of crap. Matthew 24:36 clearly states "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." There are many places in the Bible that point out that no one knows when the end will be. There are also numerous passages that warn against listening to false prophets and deceivers. So really, it's the people's fault for not going to the Bible to actually understand how the end times will occur. And honestly, anyone that unwise to blow their lives savings on those kinds of claims has more problems then listening to rants from one so-called prophet.

The same thing is true of Heaven's Gate. The Bible is clear that killing yourself is not what God wants for you. You are only focusing on individuals who have, in a sense, "twisted" the word of God and deceived people into believing something that isn't. And again, it's the peoples' fault for not being more careful and evaluating the claims made by one man about what God wants them to do.

As I've said, so far, you've only mentioned examples of one individual leading only the careless and ignorant into believing something that is quite easy to disprove and avoid. The Inquisition was more of a political move than a religious one. It focused more on keeping the people in order and uniting them under one rule rather than making a religious conversion of an entire country (which was already predominately Catholic if I'm not mistaken). Anything can be done in the name of religion, such as the Crusades and discovery of the New World...but often times, you'll find that these so called "religious centered" were actually covers for power and economic greed. The leaders may have believed what they were doing was religious and may have done it in the name or religion, but that does not make it a truly religious action. Those actions only give religion a bad name.

There is no disagreement that life is finite. Only that after this finite life is an afterlife that is eternal. And that's what religion focuses on primarily (at least from the Christian perspective that I'm mainly working from). I fail to see how the finiteness of this like makes it worth living. What worth are you going to derive from such a short life? How much of that worth can you take with you if there is no afterlife or even if there is one? Religion shouldn't and doesn't prompt a person to be lazy until he die, but rather as I mentioned before, to live a full and meaningful life in preparation for the life after. This life also entails working to further the kingdom of God by bringing others to him. This isn't done because you want to deceive someone into believing something, but rather done in the hopes that one day, that person will be with you in heaven someday. Hell is a very unpromising prospect. Yet no matter how well people live their lives, they will only end up there if they do not believe in Christ, his death, and accept the Grace God has provided. This is also made clear in the Bible when Jesus responds in John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." It's harsh, but it is the truth (at least from where I'm standing).

As for indoctrination, kids are indoctrinated everyday by more things than religion. TV, magazines, computer, public education, government...the list goes on and on of different things that indoctrinate children in this modern day and age. If you are going to attack religion for indoctrinating children with "bad ideas," you better cast some other stones at other things that indoctrinate children with just as many "bad ideas."

I'm not asking you to convert, but only attempting to show you that this is what it seems like from a Christian perspective. I don't expect you to agree or to make any sense of this. All I can tell you is that this makes sense to me and millions and other people out there. Hopefully it will make sense to you one day, but if not, we can just keep arguing until it makes some kind of sense or until you understand and accept religion as it is. And for being half asleep, your points made sense to me. You made some good points. I was also half asleep when I wrote this, so I think we have a fair playing field.

Well, I am not a huge believer and a dedicated one, but I still go to Church some times and I believe in the bottom of my heart. I want here to comment on Duke Juker post, where he says:



I have heard and I am almost sure that the Church does not let people who committed a suicide to be taken in the Church for the last rituals before the burying his body in the ground. So all those "believers" who tries to reach the God killing themselves are not so huge believers as they think they are.

I believe that what scientific and empirical evidence that has been provided, is not so much to prove or disprove the existence of God, but to provide an explanation of the origins of the Earth, the universe and of human beings as a species. Science can only provide evidence to support or refute a hypothesis, usually one which is based on physical matter. Science could never provide any evidence for the non-existence of God, because inherently that is really a philosophical matter, which goes beyond the physical into the realm of a "relationship". <---- Please think about that last statement.

What some non-believers do not understand is that The Bible is not to be taken literally. Those that try and take The Bible literally, like prophesying the exact date when the world will end, based on some sort of calculations they come up with from a literal interpretation of The Bible, are really not to be taken seriously. They are false prophets, they do not speak on behalf of God and The Bible warns us of them. They are fanatics, crack pots and really give Christianity a very bad name. They do not speak for all of Christianity. That should be taken into consideration. They claim that they have interpreted the Scriptures correctly, but we all can see how well that has been going for them. The Bible in fact, is written in many different styles throughout. Some parts are an accurate historical account of the times when it was written, some parts are poetry written to convey a sentiment... other parts are written as parables, intended on teaching lessons by analogy. You must take the context of the part of the Bible you are reading into consideration to get to the real intended meaning of the words. Most of it is really intended on teaching us how to love each other and give us meaning and a purpose for our lives. Are we relevant? Why are we here? How should we treat others? These are not questions that science can answer.

What science can provide is evidence to support the age of the Earth. (Even the Pastor at my church does not agree that The Bible says the Earth is only 3000 years old.) But, science can never provide empirical evidence to prove or disprove there is a God. This is a very complex issue, because you must have not only a correct "interpretation" of what is written in The Bible (which is subjective and subject to misinterpretation), but the correct interpretation must also come from a theologian who can correctly provide the proper context of the use of the passages. That is, an expert in interpreting God's Word, providing the proper meaning and application.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not a matter of laziness. It's also not a matter of science proving or disproving the existence of God. We're talking about concepts that go way beyond the physical... a realm in which science has limited relevancy.

It's very hard to explain. But, consider this.... all of this is coming from me, a scientist by formal education, with two University degrees, who for the majority of my life considered myself an atheist, and who within the past 5 years or so realized something that science could never teach me. When one looks for answers in The Bible for such complex things as human relationships, and the meaning of life (philosophical questions) and considers that what was written thousands of years ago has so much meaning and is so profound, it makes you think twice about what you believe and what you rely upon to give meaning to your existence. We humans by ourselves really aren't that smart today... how much smarter would we have been 2000 years ago? See for yourself is the only thing I ask you to do. When you realize what I have, that will be the only evidence you need. Look for meaning to your life, beyond your physical being. Are you just a big bag of skin and organs, breathing, eating, sleeping, reproducing, dieing? Or, are you so much more than that?

No one can tell another person who they are. Self awareness only comes from within the individual. Some people quite frankly really don't know who they are and are confused. Ever hear of the expression "he went to go and find himself"? Some people never do find themselves. For those who are quite self aware and recognize they have a spiritual part of their being, their faith is part of who they are. It's not that someone told them they have to be religious, it's a choice that not only did they decide to make, but were compelled to make because they gained an understanding they never had before. For me, the incentive to seek answers within The Bible was not from the threat that if I didn't understand and become a Christian I would eventually go to hell after I die; it was to objectively find out more from a different perspective so that I could make an intelligent decision, knowing all the information. The scare tactic really doesn't work on most people.

Christians are called to lead others to Christ, but in all honesty they are terrible salespeople. No sense of effective promotion and marketing. All done in love (supposedly, except for those guys always asking for money on TV and selling all that bogus prayer crap). All too much caught up in the "your salvation is at stake" message. They are very heartfelt, passionate and truthful in their intent, but so bad in the delivery. Christians don't really understand how that comes across to non-believers, they are too concerned with spreading The Word and not concerned with how the message is received. I can fully understand why people don't take religious people seriously, having walked both sides of the fence. Can you imagine an advertisement on TV for the world's best product, only the commercial was the worst, most obnoxious commercial you have ever experienced? You wouldn't buy it no matter how good it was. And, yes the hypocrisy of some and the false teachings of another, and the just plain weirdo fanatics would tend to really obscure something that just might be worthy of serious consideration. But, you just can't take it seriously because it's not consistent. I hear you all on that.

Just remember, it's up to you and you alone to decide what is best for you. Just make decisions based on a full understanding.