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138 or 200
Poll ended at February 5th, 2014, 4:05 pm
138 29%  29%  [ 10 ]
138 29%  29%  [ 10 ]
200 21%  21%  [ 7 ]
200 21%  21%  [ 7 ]
Total votes: 34
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 Post subject: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 4:05 pm 
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With the recent combat beta (which you should all check out) there's been lots of "discussion" on the forums regarding what people don't like. Practically everything from before Evolution of Combat has been brought up in one form or another. One of the more prominent discussions is bringing back the old combat formula. This resulted in a max level of 138.

If anyone doesn't remember the 138 calculation let me know and I'll post it.

Anyways, this is a bit of research for something I'm going to be working on next week. 138 or 200?

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PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 4:05 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 4:54 pm 
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138 or 126. 200 is way too simplified.

200 just means you have max def and one other maxed combat stat. It does not mean you are max combat. Hence why almost everyone you see is 200 or close to it.
138/126 means you have 99 att/str/def/hp and atleast 97 pray/summ.

156 Would probably be more accurate though as that would allow Ranged and Magic to affect the overall. Have every combat related skill affect your combat level, regardless of that level. Only have level 9 prayer? Well that's still 1 Combat level.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 5:04 pm 
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The thing about the 138 system is that players create Pures, who specialize in only one or two stats to keep their combat levels low so they can easily dominate more well-rounded players. At the same time, of course, the 200 system is indeed simplified because Pures no longer have that advantage.

Instead, I propose a system be put in place that combines these two. Instead of a guaranteed combat level for every 4 or so skills, or a combat level based on highest skill, your combat level is instead based on total skill in relation to your highest skill. Like, having level 99 strength and 99 hits will net you level 100 combat, and the other... I dunno, 50 or so can be obtained by training other skills up to 99. But not as much. For example, training to 99 defence from there will only bring you to combat 125. Add 99 attack, you get 135. And so on and so forth.

This will create a sort of declining slope for level gain. This way, pures can still be relatively low-level, but balanced players will have somewhat higher stats for that level than 138. That, and it will be much harder to get that higher combat level, which means players won't have to be as afraid to gain levels and lose their place they are used to.

Just a thought. I voted for 200 because it's simple, and I like simple in my games.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 6:35 pm 
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The current calculation of 200 makes sense with how they have changed the effectiveness of combat skills. Unless they fundamentally alter the way combat works again, I see no reason to change the way combat level is calculated again.

Attack, Magic, or Ranged = offensive power (mostly from the tier of weapons you can use now) - if you switch to another style, your max offensive power is still the same
Defence = defensive power (mostly coming from the tier of armour you can use now)

Together they equal your possible max effectiveness in combat, assuming you have the gear for your levels. The only problem I see is how they have included strength and summoning in with the offensive power maximum. Strength is useless besides unlocking abilities, and familiars do negligible damage compared to your other offensive skills.


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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 7:56 pm 
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138

I think I like the formula better. As was mentioned, 200 is too simple and doesn't really give a lot of information on what a person's combat skills are like. At the very least, the old combat formula should be modified to make more sense. 138 is a pretty arbitrary number.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 8:00 pm 
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138, no questions asked.

Ok, I get where Jagex was going with the whole 200 combat thing, and I love how easy the new calculation works. But you CANNOT tell me, whatsoever, that a person with 99 def and 99 mage will have the same dps with 80 attack as someone with fully maxed combat. That's just bull.

One way Jagex could make the 200 combat formula work: Make the displayed combat level the type which is currently being wielded. If I'm holding a royal crossbow, I'd want people to know that yeah, I don't have 99 range, so don't expect me to give amazing dps. When someone sees "Combat Lvl: 200," who the f*ck actually thinks, "oh look, they must be good!" because, let's be honest, soooo many people have 99 mage and 99 def because they're crazy easy to get. At least make the combat level correspond to make it relevant.

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PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 8:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 29th, 2014, 11:25 pm 
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They both suck. The entire combat level system is screwed up.

Look at Nex and the QBD. They are both level 220. However, Nex has over 50,000 more Life Points than the QBD. According to RSWiki, the QBD also has 1 magic, where Nex has 80. In fact, Nex has level 80 attack, range, and mage across the board. You know what else has 80s across the board? A Mithril Dragon, which only has a combat level is only 160 and 17,800 LP. The whole thing doesn't make ANY sense. I'm pretty sure they are just making up a falsified number at this point.

I'd love to see things based on the only true indicator of combat - Constitution level. That gives you an idea of true combat stats, because you can only raise it through doing combat. Make a formula that factors the other combat skills in and it will give you a much better idea of true level and potential power in combat. Monsters should have a combat level that calculates how hard they are to hit and how hard they attack. Maybe they could do damage output potential versus their armor/defense and come up with a number that way.

I don't know, but the current method is horrible and the whole thing needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up.


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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 30th, 2014, 5:42 pm 
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It is a tough question. 200 is too simplified, but I don't think the old 138 formula is the best option for the new game either. I agree that ALL combat levels should be taken into account.. whether prayer and summoning should be included or not is a matter of debate for another time, but certainly attack, strength, defense, ranged and magic should be used together to determine a level. It also seems obsolete to me that strength is used to help your melee skill, but not ranged or magic... I would love to see this skill increase the power of hits in these two combat skills as well.
It would be nice to see them work on a fairer levelling system, so that those players with max combat skills are not shown at the same level of someone with 99 defense and magic, and only 60 in attack and ranged.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: January 31st, 2014, 3:12 pm 
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I like Alex's idea, or at least the basis of it. Most of us remember when a "max" combat level meant "maxed" combat skills, but this current system makes it very easy for pures to be "max level". I personally don't mind the 200 level combat system; it gives a slightly better idea of what to expect. Higher levels means a tougher opponent, even if the reasons why they are tough is different.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: February 7th, 2014, 5:33 pm 
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I prefer the more nuanced 138. If people want to spend time making pures for staking etc. then fine by me. If a person wants to make gp or whatever through pking, they should be willing to spend the time to get the required stats.


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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: February 14th, 2014, 2:19 pm 
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Here's the reason why I asked this question:

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: February 14th, 2014, 5:41 pm 
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Do you want comments here, or where, for your video?

First, your supplementals are an interesting thing which would be good for the RS community to watch. It'd be nice if you could get more viewing them. May I suggest sometimes getting other people on there as well, for differing opinions/debates?

Second...
By your system, if a pure has 90 Attack/Strength and 70 Defence and 1 magic, he could wield a wand and be combat level 73. He stakes against a level 100 and gets them to bet high and then he pulls out dual drygores and his combat goes to 162. Oh ****!
Sorry, but that system seems more flawed then either of the current ones.

Combat level should never be based on the combat triangle. Combat level is a representation of your overall combat ability, not your ability in a specific skill. 126/138 was flawed in this regard in that Melee would always take priority. The new system needs to be built with this in mind so that it doesn't follow them same path. Combat Skill + Defence is way too simple and doesn't tell anything about the player's combat ability. You're 200, 200 WHAT? I know you have 99 defence, wahoo, that just means you can wear tetsu - which I would know if we're PVPing because overrides(thankfully) don't show in PVP. I can see your weapons, yes, but what about your Prayer? What about your Summoning? Are you going to pull ancient magics on me? Will you flip to an ascension crossbow? None of this information is given with the simplistic 200 based system.

We need a system where every combat skill is weighted the same. If someone chooses to raise one really high and leave the others low, than that's their choice. Overall it'll do them more harm than good.

And Shane, you talk about the past as if it's evil. If that were the case, History would not be a subject in school and University. Here's a fitting quote:
Quote:
"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."

Being stuck in the past is one thing, returning to one's folly is one thing, but learning from the past and previous actions is an entirely different thing.
Being stuck with the same thing is just as bad as being stuck in the past.
Constantly changing without learning is just as bad.
If we do not learn we cannot make positive changes. Change in and of itself is intrinsically neutral. It becomes evil if it is done without thought. It becomes good if it is done with serious, intelligent thought and consideration.
The past isn't evil, History isn't evil, and previous eras of Runescape weren't evil either.

Just thought I should add that bit as it seems whenever you talk about or refer to the past you imply that it is evil or bad.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: February 14th, 2014, 8:44 pm 
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I prefer 138 and not just because it's what I was used to. I like it better since it wasn't just mainly based on Defence, but rather most of your combat skills. I mean, with the current combat level you have people that are level 200 but don't even have all maxed combat stats, therefore they aren't "truly" maxed. Hopefully the old combat system does in fact come back.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: February 18th, 2014, 8:15 pm 
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Wow, 138 is winning overwhelmingly in the poll, with about 104,000 votes versus about 39,000 votes for the 200 system.

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 Post subject: Re: 138 vs. 200
PostPosted: February 19th, 2014, 1:53 am 
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Shane wrote:
Here's the reason why I asked this question:

What would happen if you were pking and switched weapons, it would totally change your combat level and would just stop the fight because of the level difference. Not that pking is really even a thing anymore though since EoC pretty much wiped it out of existance. Also the current system if flawed for the reasons already highlighted and because of the fact that it does not include prayer, a lot of pkers have no honor and back when pking still existed people could have 99 prayer and still be the same combat level as you with similar stats and just pray the entire fight (which they did all the time).

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