Is there a god? <dramatic music>

Jasonmrc · **Posted:** June 1st, 2007, 8:58 pm

Yes it does, but its the same thing.

If there is no God then there is no 'afterlife'.
If there is a God then there is an 'afterlife'.

Adbot · **Posted:** June 1st, 2007, 8:58 pm

The Haysta · **Posted:** June 1st, 2007, 10:24 pm

In some cultures, there is no afterlife yet they still worship certain deities.

Pat · **Posted:** June 1st, 2007, 11:30 pm

It's called a "FAITH" because it takes FAITH in God to believe. If God were proven to exist or something, it wouldn't be a faith anymore, it would be a fact.

Science = Fact
Faith = Faith

And also, who's to say which God is right is right and which is wrong? There are many religions in the world, they all are similar to you Jason. They believe in their God, and only their God. But if everyone believes in a different God, they can't ALL be right.

I mean seriously, how many "religious experiences" do you think have occured to people in each of those religions? I'll bet money that every religion has its miracles attributed to their God. Again, they can't ALL be right.

MattVortex · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 1:56 am

Jasonmrc wrote:

Matthew wrote:

Quote:

BTW, what created the things that created this 'big bang'?

I answered that in a previous post. Quantum physics has proven that something can happen without necessarily having a cause.

Something can happen? Does that mean anything? Or just scientific things?

Anything.

The other theory is that before the Big bang there was simply nothing, no time, none of the 11 dimensions we know of today - they were all one big tangled mess. The big bang was the alignment of all of these, creating pure energy, aligning time, which then made quarks and leptops, etc, etc, etc. The alignment did not necessarily have to be cause by anything, though - it could have just been random chance that at one instant they happened to align.

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If it means anything then you're going against yourself. (haven't I heard this before?)

You are saying things can happen or be without an explainable cause. You can't explain what created this thought up 'big bang' without telling me to 'just believe'. And I can't explain God or the Bible to you unless I ask you to have Faith.

There is a distinct difference between me asking you to believe that something can happen without a cause, Jason, and you asking me to believe in a God; which I am not sure you see. There is nothing rational which points to God, however the fact something can be caused by nothing has been rationally deduced with science and maths. I am sure you know that the volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi * r^3 - just because you have not seen the evidence for that, though, doesnt mean it's wrong. Other people have seen and know the maths. When it comes to God, however, no-one has seen any rational evidence of any kind, therefore no-one should rationally believe in God.

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Why did I say the 'big bang' was thought up and I didn't say that God or the bible was? Simple. I'm on the 'God and Bible theory' side so ofcourse i'd always say that its real. Your on the 'Science and big bang theory' side so ofcourse you'd always say that the big bang was real.

Again you are incorrect. There is a distict difference between fundamentalism and passion. You would never in a million years change your views, because you are pretty fundamentalist. If I saw convincing scientific evidence that the Big Bang theory was wrong, and another theory was correct, I might be inclined to change my views. The scientist is one who can change what he thinks through rational reasoning. The fundamentalist is one who will never change his mind.

Notice, Jason, that I have been following two different ideas about the cause of the Big Bang - no cause vs alignment of dimensions. I dont know which is right, which just goes to prove that science can change its mind.

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Sounds like we're both stumped against each other. Neither can prove the other wrong according to your physics.

Science, Jason, is the search for pattern, for rationality, through reasoning and observation. There is no evidence which leads to creationism/God, and there is no evidence which contradicts the big bang/evolution. The only sensible, rational thing to believe, therefore, is in the Big Bang, Evolution, and science.

Believe what you want to believe. I think i'll keep my head out of the clouds.

ryan1 · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 6:03 am

Agent Waffles wrote:

There is no hard evidence to support the existance of God, yet there is for the big bang .... However there is evidence to support that there was a point in time which the universe developed from a single point and is continually expanding.
[/color]

Couldn't that single point be God? He could have caused your precious Big Bang. Personally, I think that God is a much better explanation than "Something can happen from nothing". I actually do believe in the Big Bang theory, but I believe God caused it.

Jasonmrc · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 2:03 pm

Yes, its just a matter of what you or I want to believe.

I don't believe that something that is scrambled can unscramble something that is scrambled. (Which is what you said, you said that the big bang alligned everything, well it would have to be tangled for everything to be tangled, and it'd have to be untangled for it to untangle things.)

Mathew wrote:

There is no evidence which leads to creationism/God

Yes there is, its the Bible. But I know what you'll say.

Mathew wrote:

There is no hard evidence which leads to the Bible being true.

There isn't any evidence of everything being tangled before this possible big bang.

Also what if this big bang, that scientists think occurred, was actually God 'untangleing' everything as you say? Can you prove that He didn't untangle everything? I'm sure you can, thanks for quoting me.

Maybe he tangled things up because their was a messed up world before ours? (Highly doubts, and you probably do too, atleast we agree on that.) And then he wanted someone to talk to again so he untangled everything.

I'm not trying to change his words just saying what might have happened, just like scientists think the big bang and its creating things might have made the world. I'm sure you'll say there's hard evidence of it, thanks for the second quote.

Mathew wrote:

When it comes to God, however, no-one has seen any rational evidence of any kind

Ahh, noone in our lifetime or the lifetime of scientists. But what about history? You'll probably say I am referring to the bible, in some points I am, but in others i'm referring to other things that happened in history.

Also, we're only debating the creation of the world, not anything else? Why?

Adbot · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 2:03 pm

MattVortex · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 2:31 pm

First of all, my name has two 't's in it. Matthew.

Jasonmrc wrote:

Yes, its just a matter of what you or I want to believe.

I don't believe that something that is scrambled can unscramble something that is scrambled. (Which is what you said, you said that the big bang alligned everything, well it would have to be tangled for everything to be tangled, and it'd have to be untangled for it to untangle things.)

Matthew wrote:

There is no evidence which leads to creationism/God

Yes there is, its the Bible. But I know what you'll say.

How many times have I now said the bible cannot possibly be used as evidence? Three? And yet you still use it. Did you not understand my analogy about the hot paper at all?

Quote:

Matthew wrote:

There is no hard evidence which leads to the Bible being true.

There isn't any evidence of everything being tangled before this possible big bang.

You're right. It's a theory. I did not at any point say it wasn't.

When it comes to evidence, though, there is, however, a mountain of evidence for the big bang, evolution and the fact that the earth is a little over 4.5 billion years old and the universe is around 13.7 billion years old. And there is also no evidence for God, though, so you have some cheek to use the evidence card.

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Also what if this big bang, that scientists think occurred, was actually God 'untangleing' everything as you say? Can you prove that He didn't untangle everything? I'm sure you can, thanks for quoting me.

Nothing could have untangled it, it would have had to happen, randomly, since what is being caused is time, and it is impossible to cause time, as time is required as a medium for cause and effect.

Nice black text. You're welcome.

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Maybe he tangled things up because their was a messed up world before ours? (Highly doubts, and you probably do too, atleast we agree on that.) And then he wanted someone to talk to again so he untangled everything.

I'm not trying to change his words just saying what might have happened, just like scientists think the big bang and its creating things might have made the world. I'm sure you'll say there's hard evidence of it, thanks for the second quote.

Again, you're welcome. And yeah, there is hard evidence pointing to the big bang. It's called Red Shift. It's a property of waves, that they get spread out when they are moving away from you, shifting towards the red. As everything in the universe is red shifted, everything is moving away from each other, and therefore the universe as a whole is expanding. If it is expanding, at some point in the past, it must have been a singularity. With a load of wierd calculations involving the Hubble constant, as well as various other things, the age of 13.7 billion years has been derived.

Quote:

Matthew wrote:

When it comes to God, however, no-one has seen any rational evidence of any kind

Ahh, noone in our lifetime or the lifetime of scientists. But what about history? You'll probably say I am referring to the bible, in some points I am, but in others i'm referring to other things that happened in history.

Give an example.

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Also, we're only debating the creation of the world, not anything else? Why?

I started that by asking you how old you think the world is. We can move onto something else if you like. Here's an idea:

What do you think about miracles? Are they real, or hallucinations? Are they caused by a god?

Jasonmrc · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 3:40 pm

Yes I understood it and I said in my post exactly what you said.

Matthew wrote:

Jason wrote:

Matthew wrote:

There is no hard evidence which leads to the Bible being true.

There isn't any evidence of everything being tangled before this possible big bang.

You're right. It's a theory. I did not at any point say it wasn't.

Thank you for agreeing and going against yourself.

I say everything being tangled is a theory and you agreed, you say God is a theory and I don't have to agree but it doesn't change the outcome.

To you both are theory's so neither has priority over the other. I believe you ended the argument about everything being tangled so we can throw it out the window since it doesn't have anything else to add to this disscussion.

And if the tangled universe might not have happened then what did the big bang do?

Matthew wrote:

What do you think about miracles? Are they real, or hallucinations? Are they caused by a god?

Ofcourse there real, people living when the doctors say they will die tonight are miracles.

What's the scientific explanation of an experienced doctor saying the patient will die tonight and then the patient lives another year or more?

I did not mean to leave the extra 'T' off as an insult. I didn't think your name had two and since I see your name so often I didn't recognize the extra 'T'.

The Haysta · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 3:46 pm

Quote:

Of course they're real, people living when the doctors say they will die tonight are miracles.

What's the scientific explanation of an experienced doctor saying the patient will die tonight and then the patient lives another year or more?

Misdiagnosis, the miracle of modern science.

Jasonmrc · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 4:10 pm

Agent Waffles wrote:

Quote:

Of course they're real, people living when the doctors say they will die tonight are miracles.

What's the scientific explanation of an experienced doctor saying the patient will die tonight and then the patient lives another year or more?

Misdiagnosis, the miracle of modern science.

Contradictory sentence.

Your saying that they're test machines made a mistake, what if 5 doctor's mahcines made the same 'mistake'? And all said the patient wouldn't live much longer.

Are you saying that's a miracle pruduced by modern science?
Or are you saying its a miracle to have the research we have?
Or did you accidentally put the word Miracle there?

The Haysta · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 4:26 pm

I ment to use miracle. Despite all the advanced equipment and highly trained professionials humans can still misdiagnose patients.

colinsoccer123 · **Posted:** June 2nd, 2007, 6:00 pm

Personally I think religion just messes up the world (everybody fighting for "holy lands" and terrorists blowing things up for "god") so I don't belive in a god

MattVortex · **Posted:** June 3rd, 2007, 3:00 am

Jasonmrc wrote:

Yes I understood it and I said in my post exactly what you said.

Then why the hell did you go and use the biblical argument again?!

Quote:

Thank you for agreeing and going against yourself.

I say everything being tangled is a theory and you agreed, you say God is a theory and I don't have to agree but it doesn't change the outcome.

To you both are theory's so neither has priority over the other. I believe you ended the argument about everything being tangled so we can throw it out the window since it doesn't have anything else to add to this disscussion.

Haha, prove what I said earlier. Science can develop and change and evolve, change its mind. Faith and religion are always the same closed-minded, blind and illogical, and actually lazy philosophies that they always have been and always will be.

Just because it's a theory doesnt mean you can bluntly dismiss it without any justification. Also, I fail to see how I went against myself - I have posed the tangled dimensions idea as a theory since I first presented it in this argument - I do not know if it is true or not, but it seems to work quite well with the current model of the beginning of the universe.

To me, both are theories, but one is completely illogical and stupid, and the other is an ok idea that has been reasoned to and other things can be explained with it. Sure, you could argue that you can explain things with God (i.e God of the gaps), but God cannot be reasoned to. Ever. In the end, you are wrong, I value the tangling theory more than the god theory, because it can be induced through a rational chain of thought.

You still have not presented any evidence for the bible being true, nor have you given a rational argument that points towards God. You're just trying to discredit me while not actually giving any evidence to back up your own points.

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And if the tangled universe might not have happened then what did the big bang do?

Did I at any point say anything about the big bang not being true? No. I just rambled a bit about the cause of the big bang, because I dont know what cause it, if anything caused it - thats the thing about science and rational thought, Jason - sometimes it doesnt know something, sometimes it can change its mind; and it tries to find out. Anything anyone religious doesn't know must obviously have been done by God. </sarcasm>

Quote:

Matthew wrote:

What do you think about miracles? Are they real, or hallucinations? Are they caused by a god?

Ofcourse there real, people living when the doctors say they will die tonight are miracles.

What's the scientific explanation of an experienced doctor saying the patient will die tonight and then the patient lives another year or more?

Coincidence. Not knowing absolutely everything. Uncertainty. Why does it have to be a miracle? Why does it have to be done by god? One definition of miracle is simply a favourable coincidence. There is no reason for it to be God.

Go ahead, Jason, reason to god. Use a rational train of thought and argument - premise-premise-conclusion kind of thing if you like, and show to me how an omnipotent rapist (did Mary ask for a baby?) pervert (he sees you naked) egomaniac (Exodus 20:5) deity, sitting somewhere up in heaven, surrounded by a load of angels can possibly be reasoned to. Your bible says he is all these things, go ahead and prove me wrong, try and prove your bible is right. Do it and i'll give you a cookie.

Believe me, i'll enjoy eating this cookie when you fail. In fact, I think i'll start eating it now.

Anubis · **Posted:** June 3rd, 2007, 9:08 am

Hello everyone.

I believe in a God. Apparently, according to Matthew, that means "Everything I don't know = I believe God did it". I don't know whether this Girl in class likes me, I don't know why my Grandfather keeps having strokes, I don't know why good people die for bad people's mistakes and I also don't know why the existence or non-existence of a God is the most important thing in people's lives. I don't know whether there's a God or not. neither do you. If you don't believe in it, fair play - you like everything to have evidence, though ironically you like to try to prove other people are wrong by researching into the more imaginative theories and saying they're what happened because they've been "proven" by someone who was doing what you're doing. If you do, then fine, you're probably wrong. You're bound by meaningless writings which are taken as fact, but you do not take into account how long ago your holy book was written. You too are as bad as the people who try to prove you wrong, you turn to the holy book and state it as fact.

The Bible has been translated many, many times. The original "story" being the same as the Bible's state today is impossible. It is impossible that it is, word for word, fact. Though it is very possible that each holy book was derived from the same writings. It is very possible everything that has been written down until now has been a mis-perception, but as in almost all stories - there is a hidden truth, which usually only the author knows about.

If you're arguing that God created the universe, then know this - the Big Bang is very likely to have happened. There is no way to find out what made it happen, it was far, far too long ago. Any theories that say "The Big Bang occurred because of..." are purely hypothetical. They should not be seen as truth. Neither should god or religion.

It would be catastrophic for this world if the existence or non-existence of a God was proven, people argue about it all the time, people kill because of it all the time. Imagine what will happen when "I've proven God does not exist" or "The Christian God comes down from heaven to bless his followers" appears in the national newspapers or television - do you think half of the world will survive? It is in my opinion, the question that if answered will destroy our race.

I wanted to stay out of this topic because I know what sort of replies I would get. Quotes from self proclaimed geniuses and links to wikipedia articles explaining theories which have only been heard of by those desperate enough to find them. Unfortunately, I believe in a God and I don't like being told I'm an idiot for doing so. It's idiocy to believe that we evolved from 'nothing'. Time never began, and it will never end. There was something before, and after the big bang.

Hey, I believe in the theory that there were more than one Big Bang! Does that also make me delusional?

MattVortex · **Posted:** June 3rd, 2007, 1:32 pm

Anubis wrote:

I believe in a God. Apparently, according to Matthew, that means "Everything I don't know = I believe God did it"

I did not say that. There is a difference, Anubis, between being religious and believing in God. I dont think you are religious, even if you do believe in God. It is possible to believe in a god without being religious.

I should, however, have probably worded it more like 'Anything that cant be explained must obviously have been god. </sarcasm>'. A fundamentalist christian might say your grandfather is being tested, or being punished; and probably the same about the good people dying for bad people's mistakes.

Quote:

If you're arguing that God created the universe, then know this - the Big Bang is very likely to have happened. There is no way to find out what made it happen, it was far, far too long ago. Any theories that say "The Big Bang occurred because of..." are purely hypothetical. They should not be seen as truth. Neither should god or religion.

We agree on something. However, there is a difference between these scientific theories and the idea of god and religion, which I did mention in my last post. Most scientific theories can be reasoned to, whereas god and religion cannot. While this does not guarantee their factual accuracy, it makes them a lot more likely to be true than something that can never be reasoned to. Ever.

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you like everything to have evidence, though ironically you like to try to prove other people are wrong by researching into the more imaginative theories and saying they're what happened because they've been "proven" by someone who was doing what you're doing.

There is a difference between evidence that we can see and hear and sense, and deductive or inductive logic and mathemetical reasoning. These 'imaginative theories' might seem imaginative to you, but they've all been reasoned to through things that are known to be fact. There is a difference between these so called 'imaginative' theories, and the completely irrational idea of some divine being.