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 Post subject: [Informer Article] Legacy Combat: The Good, The Bad, and...
PostPosted: February 15th, 2014, 2:09 am 
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You know, I have to admit the first time I saw Jagex announce a 'Legacy Combat system' I laughed. The idea is just hilarious to me. Or perhaps it's not the idea itself, but Jagex's history regarding combat.

You see, originally they were all fired up about this new combat system they made (which was in fact a not very well ripped off version of almost every other MMO out there) and were so adamantly sure that over time everyone would grow to love their poster child. They soon found that was not the case and that it was indeed the exact opposite. The recent polls have proven the majority don't care for EOC.

For clarification, I am referring to the poll that recently concluded in Runescape that is asking whether or not we want a Legacy Mode. Currently, the results are a staggering 187k (80%) saying Yes, with a surprising 46k (19%) saying No (anyone else wonder where that other 1% is?). This poll proves that the majority of active players do not favor the current EOC system. And also, by virtue of the purpose of the question, it implies that more than 3/4 of the active player base prefers the original combat system. This doesn't come as a surprise to me, but it may to some people. I am glad to see an official poll stating the players' opinions on this highly contested subject.

Now, back to my subject.

I think it is funny that they have realized their mistake of forcing the unwanted EOC system on everyone, yet instead of doing the right thing and modifying it appropriately or removing it entirely, they are attempting to build, or perhaps 'resurrect', a system akin to the previous combat Runescape was known for and run it alongside EOC. Yes, they are doing changes to EOC, a 'Second Beta', but that should've been done before EOC was released or in the months directly after its release.

So, what Good would Legacy Combat bring?

The Good

Supposedly we will see the return of our beloved Special Attacks. If this is the case, then it will give some weapons back their use. Though I'm not sure how much of an impact this will really have since the EOC tiering system has made most weapons obsolete. Also I think there's talk of our 'Special Energy' bar not starting at full and not regenerating and in fact working like adrenaline. If that's the case then it makes special attacks almost as worthless as abilities. Anyone who knows what special attacks were knows that the best feature of them was opening combat with them, whether in PVP or PVM.

Legacy Combat may see the return of some veteran players. This is a pretty big may, though one of the primary purposes of this update. They're also hoping that this will help prevent people from leaving. I understand their logic in this hope, but it comes about a year and a half too late. If I had quit when EOC came out I highly doubt anything would bring me back, specifically an attempt at recreating the combat system I learned on. I really doubt this will bring back many players. At best it may keep some from leaving, though I think any that were going to leave because of EOC already have.

The Bad

It's a waste of development time. Yes, I just said that.

Y'all back on your feet, or chair, rather, now? Good, I shall continue.

Yes, 'Legacy Combat Mode' is a waste of development time. Why? Because it's building a second combat system instead of fixing the current one. Aside from the initial time it takes to build the system, you also have these:

  • Every single new quest must be considered with both EOC and LC,
  • Every single new piece of gear must be considered with both EOC and LC,
  • Each new item will have different stats for both EOC and LC,
  • New minigames, new skills, changes to existing things.
  • Any piece of content that relates even remotely to combat must be considered in light of both EOC and LC.

This makes everything require more time and more resources. If this extra time is not spent then you will get flops. Yea, I know, 'flops' is an uber technical term. If they release something that only works with EOC, LCers won't be able to do it or will be able to do it too easily. If they release something for LC, EOCers won't be able to do it or will be able to do it easily. Making exclusive content either way would be a very bad idea.

Also, it will create a further divide in the community. There will be LCers and EOCers. All we need is another exclusivity club. It's bad enough my nine 99s and 9 year career is worthless in the eyes of a 6-month member with max skills. Not that I care what others think of me, but it's the principle of the thing.

The Honestly

I don't care who you are, you cannot run two different combat systems side-by-side in the same game environment. That's a fact, jack!
Runescape was designed around the 'click and wait' system. Then EOC came along and turned everything upside down. Now they want to add a system like (Note: Legacy Combat will never be the same as previous combat) the previous system. It is highly unlikely that this will operate smoothly with things that have been tweaked for EOC. They turned 12 years of combat settings, configurations, and tactics upside down and now not 2 years later they want to divide the combat table and have one mixed one and one mixed one that thinks it's the old system.

For the record, I think they shouldn't be making an entirely new system, especially while revamping EOC. They should revamp EOC first and then see what else they need to change. While I don't like EOC (due to observations and first hand experiences, not blind hatred), making a new system is not the answer and in my book is not even an option.

I forget how the saying goes, but it's something along the lines of 'You made this mess, now live with it.' Jagex created EOC and the issues regarding a combat system that can't figure out what it wants to be. They have two options:
1) Leave EOC be. Let it be what it is and ignore it.
2) Keep tweaking EOC until it's how they and the player's want it.
3) Add a new system to run alongside EOC.

Two, not three. Two.

And they don't really have a choice. If they leave EOC be then new combat related things will be trying to use a broken system and players will keep getting confused or annoyed at the system and ultimately leave. Their only choice is to keep tweaking EOC. Note, 'tweak' in my book means to change things slightly until they work as desired. This doesn't mean turning a car into a boat, it means trying a new brand of oil and driving a few hundred miles to see how it runs and then change if you think something else would work better.

Jagex is somewhat headed in this direction with the 'EOC Combat Beta', but then they're wanting to drive their yacht alongside their sportcar with this new 'Old style' Legacy Combat. I think if they really put their mind to it, they could fix both birds with one wrench.

...Yea, enough with the metaphors.

I personally like the new changes that will be coming to EOC and I'm not ashamed to say I will likely be using Revolution over Momentum Plus. Does this mean I am all for EOC now? Not hardly. You see, the reason I like Revolution is because it runs through the basic abilities I've set up, automatically. I don't have to smash buttons. This may sound like I'm lazy or incapable of learning how to use EOC, but that is not the case. I have played games with far more advanced combat systems and have excelled at them. EOC is nothing compared to them. No, the reason I like this is because it feels more like Runescape.

Runescape never has and I hope to Guthix never will be a game of button smashing. It's just not how this game is played. Before EOC there was some pretty serious strategy to combat at times. It had more to do with your personal skill of the UI than what gear you had. But on the flipside, anyone could come out of Tutorial Island and instantly be addicted to combat. It was simple yet somehow kept our attention. I think this is perhaps what people really desire. It's not that they hate EOC, nor that they 'can't change', it's that they want something simple, yet effective and addicting. They want something that can be advanced and intense when they want it to be, but can also be easy and relaxing.

I think the new changes coming to RS will do that, to a certain extent. There is one problem though.

With the addition of Revolution and Special Abilities, Momentum and even Momentum Plus will become mostly useless. While relative damage may remain the same, the passive abilities of certain weapons will be removed. This means Momentum users can no longer rely on their weapons automatically doing their special ability. Instead they must use the 'Special Ability' ability. Now, this doesn't break Momentum but it does require Adrenaline. If you're unfamiliar with the new changes then you'll wonder how a Momenter gains Adrenaline since using basic abilities breaks Momentum. With the new changes, you will gain 3% Adrenaline for each attack sequence when using Momentum. 2% for mainhand and 1% for offhand, or 3% for two-hand (I did not try with a sword and shield but I assume you'd gain 2%, though possibly 3%). When you compare that to abilities you find that it is quite lacking. It takes much longer to gain sufficient adrenaline when using Momentum. That's not too surprising, I can understand why they have it like that. The problem though is that it makes Momentum effectively ineffective - worthless.

Now here's an interesting idea: Get rid of Momentum and don't make Legacy Combat.

"OMG Woot! Jason has finally converted to EOC!"

Haha, No.

Instead of adding Momentum as a new combat mode like Revolution and Manual are for EOC, and instead of adding Legacy Combat as a new system, add a new combat mode that functions like the old system. I don't know what it would be called, but it would have special energy just like before - 100% with it starting at full and regenerating from 0 to full in five minutes, special attacks, damage equal to using abilities, etc. Basically, instead of making a whole new system, they could simply add it as part of the current one. I don't know how exactly they plan to add Legacy Combat's toggle, it may wind up being activated how Revolution and Manual are switched.

... Alas ...

It's getting late and this article is getting long (over 1,800 currently), so I shall attempt to end.

There are just three more things that may come with Legacy Combat that I'd like to touch base on briefly.

First, they may be changing how damage values and hitpoints appear. This would be scaled down numbers, though the actual damage would be the same. This would be them reverting changes that came with EOC and pre-EOC. Originally a high hit in RS was 30, with max player hitpoints being 99. They scaled the numbers by 10 once and then scaled them again by an unknown integer when EOC was released. There was no need for either of these changes. Now we have thousands of hitpoints and do thousands of damage but we're really doing just the same as before, it just looks bigger. I would like to see them scale all damage and hitpoints by 10, not just for Legacy Combat.

Second is combat level. There was some discussion of this on the forums recently with a poll held by Shane. The general consensus was that the majority preferred the 138 combat level formula, but both 138 and 200 do not represent a character's full combat ability. I would like to see a system that calculates combat based on every single level of attack, strength, defence, ranged, magic, constitution, prayer, and summoning. Perhaps something along the lines of: for every five levels you have total of these, you gain 1 combat level. This would mean people would start at level 3.2, 1 level from each combat skill plus level 10 constitution = 17 total combat levels / 5. The max level would be 158.4, 8 combat skills X 99 max level = 792 total combat levels / 5. This would be a simple formula that would give value to every level regardless of which combat skill it was. If someone was not maxed in all skills then you would know it. Pures would be somewhere between 40-60 combat.

This is just an example, though one I think would work very well.

Finally thirdly is one more little biff that is planned to come with the new Legacy system. They want to replace the UI and graphics with how it looked in the old system - hitpoints by the map, old hitsplats, etc. This is unnecessary. People do not need, nor do I think really want, it to look like the old system. They've already gotten used to the new UI and unless you make the Legacy combat system and UI default then they aren't likely to use it if they aren't used to the new UI.

Bottom line

Legacy Combat, as it has been set out thus far, really isn't the answer and is unnecessary work that will change things in ways undesired, even by 'The Oldies'. I think Jagex is going to add too much 'retroesque-ness' to it and will shun most people from using it due to the lack of functionality they will force upon it.

Heh, so much for a short article :)

Sound off, what do y'all think of Legacy Combat and the changes to EOC?

This was originally posted as an Informer Runescape article.

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 Post subject: Register and login to get these in-post ads to disappear
PostPosted: February 15th, 2014, 2:09 am 
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 Post subject: Re: [Informer Article] Legacy Combat: The Good, The Bad, and
PostPosted: February 16th, 2014, 8:17 pm 
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Joined: February 16th, 2014, 8:07 pm
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To be honest I hope Legacy doesn't end up going through only because this just doesn't make any sense. I do agree they need to update the game of course, but adding something that's been outdated for some time isn't a good idea. I think Revolution should do what's needed that people want, past that everyone else is just calling for "remove EoC, go back Pre-EoC, blah blah *anti-EoC comment*". The old style of combat was good, but it was good for how the game was during its creation. If you look at other games made during then they go about the same way, they may not have updated but they have similar mechanics. Runescape just seemed stale after having the same repetitive combat for so long. EoC may not be exactly what people were after, but it has helped to me.

Also I feel like the polls are skewed drastically, if they were analyzed by who plays which version primarily, I would bet a good chunk of them primarily play '07.


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