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 Post subject: [Informer Article] But It's Not How *I* Wanted!
PostPosted: July 19th, 2014, 9:01 pm 
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"Runescape was once something really unique and was a great game. It was never supposed to have action bars." - Cyanerdx

While the above quote may not fully pertain to this article, I felt I should add it because it is true nonetheless - Runescape was never designed to have an ability/action bar system. This is one, if not the main reason why the Evolution of Combat (EoC) is one of the most disliked updates in the history of Runescape.

Today I was perusing the Runescape Official Forums (RSOF) and noticed there was recently, just over the past 3 days of Legacy's existence, a nerf to Legacy damage. How did this happen? Why did this happen?

From what I gather players were complaining that Legacy was 'WAY' more powerful than EoC and did 'WAY' more DPS than EoC. It seems the first nerf cut the damage of Legacy to somewhere around 60%, then it was buffed the next day to be about 70% of original.

My question though is, "How did an issue like this get past the beta?"

Well quite simply it was because not enough people played the beta and gave input. This, in fact, is half of the importance of the Legacy update; it should fit and play smoothly alongside EoC, not underneath it or above it. The input of the community as a whole is required to achieve this goal. Instead we have this new system which was supposedly 'WAY OP' to begin with and is now 'WAY UP'. In other words, it made EoC worthless before and now Legacy is worthless. This is the extreme side of the balancing coin and the reason why I hate any nerf or buff.

The problem I see on the forums is there is too large a pool of players giving input on a topic that reaches far beyond their realm of reasoning. I do not mean this in a condescending way, but rather as most players are only speaking from their point of view and do not look beyond and think about other situations. Hence 'OP' for slaying could be way underpowered for bossing, vice versa, could be OP/UP for minigames, etc.

"you shouldnt have to need the best rotation for the best dps to compete with legacy though imo, legacy should be somewhat less than what the average player can get from full manual for it to be balanced. For the amount of effort and some planning that eoc combat takes, you should be rewarded with being able to deal slightly more damage." - 4 I am King

Legacy should be equivalent to a player using abilities. Equivalent not greater, not lesser. Also note I said 'using abilities', not 'an experienced player using the optimum rotations and exclusive/quest reward abilities'. If you balance Legacy to be equal to the best players in the best situations, then of course it will be over powered for most players in most situations. Likewise if you make Legacy less than the average player using normal abilities than it will be less than equal in all instances.

One thing people need to remember is that damage with EoC is dynamic and depends on which abilities you use while damage in Legacy is constant except for when you use a special attack.

EoC will always start off doing less damage because the very nature of EoC and any ability system relies on the concept of continual combat. Runescape's previous combat system did not rely on such a thing. You were just as effective after 5 minutes as you were at the beginning (actually if you had certain special attack weapons you were most powerful when the battle began, this is the exact opposite of EoC). In EoC you are most effective after you have been in combat for a bit as you then have access to thresholds and ultimates. It is because of this, the very concept of which EoC runs on, that EoC should always be better in long fights and Legacy should always be better in short fights. So yes, in Slayer Legacy should win hands down in most instances and when Bossing EOC should win hands down in most instances.

One of the best posts on the forums I've seen is this:
"This was the reason I was against legacy. It was built to work with the EOC. Or at least they tried to.
What I wish would happen is EOC gets exclusive worlds and legacy gets exclusive worlds, where you can hop between the two with the same account but can only use the EOC or legacy depending on the world you're in. That's how it should be, then BOTH sides don't have to be affected by the other combat system.

EOC worlds would be able to move on with EOC as it is, and legacy mode players would get to use old combat." - Ming N Excal

This I think is one of the best solutions. If people would accept the facts I previously stated we wouldn't have an issue, but since we all know they won't, this is the next best thing. There is no honest reason that I can think of that the two systems need to interact side-by-side or against each other. This is no excuse for one system to be far and away better than the other, otherwise people will go to one world for one thing and another for a different thing.

Which actually brings me to another point I hadn't thought of but is quite relevant.

Only the Min/Max'ers will really care to switch between systems.

If it takes me two seconds longer to kill something, does it matter? No, and it won't matter to most of Runescape either. From what I read on the forums there was a difference of 2-3 seconds between the two combat systems. That is 1-2 extra hits. For 1: randomness alone could account for an additional hit, for 2: one more hit will not be the end of the world. The average player won't even notice. Most players are going to choose which system they prefer, not which is more efficient.

And lastly, a thousand players (though I doubt it was that many) whining Legacy is 'OP' or EOC is 'OP' is not a good focus group. On issues like this the dev team needs to have a group of in-house testers who can give things like this an honest, well-rounded, evaluation with characters of all levels and in instances of differing types. Since they could rig their characters to have any skills or gear they can check a large variety of instances, including just out of tutorial, middle casual, and upper end-game.

What are your thoughts? Not on which system you like, but on the issue of handling the balance and effectiveness of the two systems.

This was originally posted as an Informer Runescape article.

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 Post subject: Register and login to get these in-post ads to disappear
PostPosted: July 19th, 2014, 9:01 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: [Informer Article] But It's Not How *I* Wanted!
PostPosted: July 20th, 2014, 5:27 am 
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I honestly never thought they could get the 2 systems working side by side properly where the majority of players were happy... and I especially didn't think it would happen with how quickly they rushed it from beta to the main game. It was only around 5 or 6 weeks it was in beta before they put it to a vote as to whether it was ready or not; I am sorry, but that was not NEARLY enough time to ensure it was ready. I tried legacy and found it too boring for me. I much prefer EOC and looking at the poll in the RSBANDB forum, a large majority agree, with 80% of our votes going toward EOC. As long as I can enjoy the game how I like to play it, I am happy. As for the balancing, I do believe Legacy should only be 75-80% of the effectiveness of EOC, simply because more effort is required. Let's face it, humans are typically lazy; if Legacy, with much less effort, gave you exactly the XP rates and damage output, then the majority would begin to just use that, and EOC would die off. Should that happen? Should EOC should be retired from the game and Legacy be the only form of combat? I would answer with a resounding "no", and I am sure at least as many players would agree with me as there would be that would disagree. By keeping the combat system with the greater effort more efficient than those that require less effort, I do think a semblance of balance can be reached. It will never be perfect for everybody, but at least the majority can choose how they want to play. If you want to head to Kree'Arra and camp for a few hours, then choose EOC and work out the best way to use abilities to keep you there. If you want to head there and fight him in Legacy mode, then you can, you just should not expect to be able to stay there as long as someone rotating abilities, when you are just clicking him once and waiting, occasionally eating to keep your health up. Hopefully a happy medium can be reached to keep the majority happy.... I won't hold my breath until that happens though.


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 Post subject: Re: [Informer Article] But It's Not How *I* Wanted!
PostPosted: July 20th, 2014, 4:20 pm 
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Working with two systems will always be difficult. no matter if they were divided by worlds or in the same world. development time from hence forth is going to be bogged down due to catering to both combat styles. Regardless, the game has been growing and that is what is important to me, as a clan owner, i enjoy the aspect of getting new friends on the game and helping them out learn the game.
I like both systems, but i will always prefer EoC.

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 Post subject: Re: [Informer Article] But It's Not How *I* Wanted!
PostPosted: July 24th, 2014, 8:46 pm 
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After testing it so much the time difference between the two skills are insignificant. Again, EOC needs more builds, they need to be able to CHAIN abilities better. The best thing the EOC can do is stun and maybe have 1-2 abilities that can take advantage of it. While one makes other bleed, reduce damage, reduce defence etc there's nothing there to take advantage of that.

Few things I would like to do it 1 give us more action bars, 5 is just not enough. with the different type of weapons, you have to fix your bar up slightly to be able difference weapon styles.

more abilities, just more. Let people figure out what crazy combos they can do with it and then nerf them if need be, make them different for vs PVE and PVP/wilderness. best thing we can do right now is take advantage of something that is hopefully stunned, but if your target didn't/doesn't get stunned, it means nothing for everything else.

Legacy should really replace momentum, there is nothing useful of momentum there. You're better off just using revolution or just go straight into legacy.

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