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[Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
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Author:  Brimmk [ September 16th, 2011, 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  [Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
Runescape; the final frontier...of grinding! Aaaah grinding, that wonderful (that's supposed to sarcasm) aspect of many classic RPGs. The gift that keeps giving... to people with sufficient attention and patience to go through with it that is.

I don't begrudge those that have the patience to grind skills to high levels the respect they deserve for doing so. In fact, the mix of grinding and non-grinding (e.g. Runecrafting) is much more difficult that pure grinding skills like fletching, but no matter what the skill in RS, grinding is the main staple for everything in the big picture. Grinding is in just about every aspect of the game, it determines what level you are, how much gold you have, and even how much respect you get for your levels.

To me, this begs an interesting question: with so many other MMORPGs moving toward (mostly) non-grinding game types, where skill and strategy play a much more important role in how well you do against people of your own level range, is RS going to be able to stay relevant? Will it still be able to attract and retain new members with what is (by many standards) a dying paradigm? This in a sense, goes back to my previous article "The Fight for the Free-to-Play Throne: How will Jagex Prevail?"

After having looked at it from a couple of angles, my answer is: unless they change soon to more diverse ways to play (new races and/or classes with unique powers and abilities) the core of core player will remain, but eventually most will abandon Runescape. At this moment in time, gameplay is extremely individualistic, not providing the tools necessary for more cohesive combat or skilling. Unfortunately the clan citadel resource gathering (especially the woodcutting), in an attempt to diversify the experience, is more frustrating and tedious than standard woodcutting. To gather the initial maximum resources (1000 per player at a lvl 1 citadel) it can take almost 3 hours of constant, mind-numbing clicking at every root on the tree, depending on how efficient you are.

We all complain about the bot problem and how annoying it is but bots, in my opinion, are only a symptom of the true problem. The truth is, unless you have an obsessive disorder or certain forms of autism, doing the same thing over and over again for hours is boring. That is why bots and macroing software has become so common for players to use. For me personally, leveling up has become more of a chore than anything else and has completely lost the charm that it did initially when I was level 10 combat and 1k gp seemed like a small fortune. In the attempt to make the game processor light and able to be played on low power machines, very few effects are impressive, combat seems stale and lackluster in comparison to what other MMOs have to offer.
As an alternative, I propose that RS should adopt a system more like that in place in WoW, quests being the main incentive and medium for leveling up. In WoW, even though you do gain xp for completing the quests, you also gain a significant amount solely from carrying out what was requested, whether the xp gained is in combat or in the other professions. Another alternative to creating more small quests could be the creation of a job board in game, where players can request certain tasks to be done for them, like getting certain items in certain quantities (for example an ad asking for 10k bow strings, with a reward around what the market price is for the item in question). Players would then have a time limit to complete the task before it becomes available again to the general public. At the completion of every task, players that successfully completed the task within the the time limit set by the orderer, would receive task points that could be redeemable for extra xp in the skill of their choosing. Tasks could also be challenges for people to complete certain dungeons or events with specific requirements (like group killing the corporeal beast or KQ without anyone using food) and would sport opulent rewards for completing such a legendary task.

Even though that could provide a release from the monotony of normal skilling, something does need to be done about combat and it's inactive and repetitive style. In this case, all I can suggest is a complete rework in favor of more and better balancing of combat strategies, with releasable abilities that would either buff you and your allies or de-buff your enemies. Also, especially magic, summoning and prayer need to be reworked as to allow for fewer consumable items (in my opinion, consumables should only be for extra large and powerful spells) and an extra regeneration of points when not in combat.
I don't like to be a doom-sayer, but something needs to change, Jagex is not getting it right right now, bots are worse than ever, the economy is slightly better, but not much, and even though Runefest is happening with plenty of community support, it seems more effort is going into other projects like 8 Realms, Herotopia, and Transformers Online than into making sure that their main product is as good as it could be.

Grinding is no longer a suitable form for gaining skill and power in videogames, and the sooner Jagex realizes that and changes the game (maybe even a transferral to either a new world in a RS3 or even making Stellar Dawn the new flagship of Jagex's MMO empire) the better. The world needs a reset and refresh, to make it truly relevant and competitive in the current global MMOG market.

This article was originally posted as an Informer Runescape article.
Author:  Adbot [ September 16th, 2011, 2:18 pm ]
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Author:  Anubis [ September 17th, 2011, 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
Spoiler for somewhat irrelevant economy rant:

The economy has turned to ******* because of rubbish like dicing and the fact most of the new items that are released are quest-completer drops only. I'm going to be quite controversial here but the bots are actually keeping the economy stabler than it would be without them. Think about it; the majority of resources now come from bots. Those with high skills are standing around at the ge playing dice games taking the money off the poorer players. And if they're not dicing, they're at tormented demons or these stupid Glacor things for dragon claws or steadfast boots and co. (Oh I see what you did there Jagex, Glacor. Glacier. They're made of ice right? Where'd you get that name from - the same trash can as Armadyl rune?) Without the bots, there would be a very, very substantial lack of resources such as ore, logs and so forth. And the bots are making money too, because the richer players don't get their resources themselves anymore - they dice, they kill these quest-completer only boss monsters, get more money, and pay the bots to kill frost dragons, fish rocktails, chop magic trees and mine rune ore for them. But, hear you argue, people bot because of the grind! No. People bot because they want the benefits fast enough to catch up with the exponentially increasing prices of rares. The GP has lost value faster than ever before down to a few major introductions by the almighty game creators;
1) Dicing. I firmly believe the introduction of a system from jagex and players alike where the rich get richer and the poor gamble away their cash has been the biggest blow to our virtual economy.
2) The rich no longer gather resources. They buy them from the desperate poor player. The poorer player battles against the falling gold piece trying to keep up with what is now the acceptable cash pile. Less determined players will resort to botting.
3) An influx of grandmaster quests and supreme rewards. I'm not going to lie. I've never been a quester. At one point I'd done all the quests (and that was when desert treasure had just come out) and the best rewards I can think of are just that, the ancient magics. Now we find the most expensive items come directly from those who've completed these hardest quests such as Corp Beast, Tormented Demons, Glacors - The exception is GWD but we all should know that killing Nex, the only one worth fighting, is not something for the typical player.

The economy's getting better? Nah mate. The economy is bot-driven, and it's bot-driven because of the rich player. I know I sound ridiculous and i'd be suprised if anyone liked what I'm saying but believe me, get rid of the dice, improve the monetary rewards from actually skilling, and for god sake stop releasing so many high-end quests (because the rewards ARE appropriate, it's just too much at once).

The worrying thing is what could happen if all the bots suddenly disappeared. It'd be good in one respect, but my god would we see prices of literally everything skyrocket. But of course, your article was on grinding and not the economy.


I think realistically, grinding and the 'boredom' that's involved is actually what gives value to the skills. Take a look at things like woodcutting, fishing, and cooking. These are massive grinds, but require very little in the way of attention. I know what i do when i'm training woodcutting. I plop the sound on max so I can hear when the tree falls down. While i'm chopping it i'm on facebook or reading an article elsewhere. As soon as I hear that crashing sound or the tweeting of a bird's nest falling, I switch tabs, correct it, and go bac to doing whatever I'm doing. Those are skill type number 1. Skills that require time but no real attention span. Now let's take a look at the grind that's involved with prayer, smithing, crafting and herblore. These are all relatively fast skills but require a rather substantial sum of money to get going. Make money (by killing tormented demons or, if you're really lazy, go dice with some poor people), pay bots to get your mats for you and grind for a couple days (perhaps a while longer with herblore) and you've got what you aimed for. This is skill type number 2. Fast skills that are money driven. I'm not going to go through all the skills, that'd be silly, but it'd make sense now to examine a few more as skill type number three. Let's take a look at Runecraft, Slayer, Farming and Agility. These skills obviously all take differing amounts of time but they all have one thing in common and it's what makes the achievement of 99 so looked up to within the game. A little thing called effort. You're not going to get 99 runecrafting by doing a couple thousand runes a day. That's how you get 99 fletching and cooking. Doing 3 or 4 slayer tasks a day will get you no-where and the same goes for farming runs and agility. Effort is required in skill type number 3 and there are usually pretty **** good rewards for getting there.

The grind is what gives value to a skill. The grind for cooking is nothing compared to runecrafting. And that's why runecrafting is seen higher up on the runescpae 'respect table'.

Now I'm sure you've played WoW but I'm not entirely sure for how long or for what reason you think it's mechanics apply to RuneScape but the grind from level 1 to the current max of 85 is, for a lack off better words, meaningless. Blizzard themselves have acknowledged this (albeit in a silent, non-confirming way) through the way that the real game of WoW starts at the max level and how fast you level up. RuneScape's not like that. In the recent Q+A about classic Andrew stated that 99 was supposed to be impossible to get. Level 60, 70, 80 and 85 were never intended to be as such. To begin with, sure it was supposed to be difficult, but with WotLK a new class was introduced cutting the grind from 1-80 to around 58-80. Further fortifying my reasoning that getting to the max level was not supposed to take too long. Plus, all updates are for the end-game. Even the term end-game itself is misleading as it is that point where the creators have intended most, if not all, of the game's players to be playing at.

Combat on RuneScape does need something extra. I admit that. Adding that which WoW has had now, after almost 10 years of the game being as it is, is simply not feasible. I don't know what solution to that there could be or even if one is needed but one thing is for certain - RuneScape is a grind. And we all like(d) it that way.
-


I read an interesting article a while ago about kids' and adults' take on videogames. The games don't get worse, the kids simply grow up and die inside. We have all essentially turned to ****. The elasticity of our imaginations begins to tighten and so videogames, be it those we've played since we were 12 (like me with runescape) or even 'newer' ones like MW2, start to give us a lot more to complain about. But they have not changed. Only our perspectives on the games have. This is why new players can play like we once did, and this is why you and I cannot play as we once did and instead criticise every little thing we can.

But that's a good thing right? ;-)
-


Very nice article. :)
Author:  Brimmk [ September 18th, 2011, 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
Anubis wrote:
*here you argue, people bot because of the grind! No. People bot because they want the benefits fast enough to catch up with the exponentially increasing prices of rares.

Now I'm sure you've played WoW but I'm not entirely sure for how long or for what reason you think it's mechanics apply to RuneScape but the grind from level 1 to the current max of 85 is, for a lack off better words, meaningless. Blizzard themselves have acknowledged this (albeit in a silent, non-confirming way) through the way that the real game of WoW starts at the max level and how fast you level up. RuneScape's not like that. In the recent Q+A about classic Andrew stated that 99 was supposed to be impossible to get. Level 60, 70, 80 and 85 were never intended to be as such. To begin with, sure it was supposed to be difficult, but with WotLK a new class was introduced cutting the grind from 1-80 to around 58-80. Further fortifying my reasoning that getting to the max level was not supposed to take too long. Plus, all updates are for the end-game. Even the term end-game itself is misleading as it is that point where the creators have intended most, if not all, of the game's players to be playing at.

Combat on RuneScape does need something extra. I admit that. Adding that which WoW has had now, after almost 10 years of the game being as it is, is simply not feasible. I don't know what solution to that there could be or even if one is needed but one thing is for certain - RuneScape is a grind. And we all like(d) it that way.
-


I read an interesting article a while ago about kids' and adults' take on videogames. The games don't get worse, the kids simply grow up and die inside. We have all essentially turned to ****. The elasticity of our imaginations begins to tighten and so videogames, be it those we've played since we were 12 (like me with runescape) or even 'newer' ones like MW2, start to give us a lot more to complain about. But they have not changed. Only our perspectives on the games have. This is why new players can play like we once did, and this is why you and I cannot play as we once did and instead criticise every little thing we can.


Ok, about the bot driven economy, I do agree with you there, heck, on most of the economy stuff you wrote, I agree. But there is a portion of players that bot because they don't want the grind and only the level. In my opinion, one of the worst things about runescape is that they dangle the proverbial carrot too far ahead of the player. "oh, you are level 40 attack and want to get a dragon dagger or dragon longsword? I'm sorry, you're going to have to get another 20 levels to be able to do that, so get at it champ!".

I do talk briefly about the economic effects of bots in my botting article.
Spoiler for relevant exerpt:

Botters are a major problem, the drive the prices of staple materials down to extremely deflated prices, making it hard for newer players to make a decent amount of money on basic material gathering like rune and pure essence, logs, lobsters and green dragon hides and bones. But we can fight back. Some of us are already doing so (you know who you are) in bot-busting sessions, and I encourage everyone to follow suit.


On the topic of WoW, I have played some, not a whole lot, but to almost get to max level. Now part of why I think the way WoW does it is so good is exactly that. Instead of thinking as max as the be-all-end-all of the game, and assuming that it would be nigh impossible to attain, they made the grinding part of the game into essentially a giant tutorial. Leveling in WoW is essentially you learning how to play and what your preferred strategy is, with plenty of room to screw up and practice on minor dungeons and instances.

The very fact that combat itself is a grind is, in my opinion, the worst possible feeling for in-game combat. Combat/game-play and story are essentially the carrots that most A-list games use as an incentive for players to keep playing, and if those things are awful, then you've got a problem. Of course, some of us don't really know better for certain video games (like runescape) and I suggest that if you've never tried any other MMOs, that you do so now, because it can give you a better perspective of what is and isn't good in each game.

On the article about how both adults and kids view video games, I would agree with it on the whole, but if you are also an idealist and like to role-play (Uncle Dano for example) a lot of the imagination is preserved. It's just the reality of the game and the fantasy in the role-player's mind usually don't ever meet, that's why a lot of us tend to get bored or criticize the game and its minutiae. Yes, I have become disenchanted with the game of Runescape as a whole (guilty as charged, everyone) but that has also given me an advantage, I can see more objectively what the game is doing right, and what it's doing wrong, or even what sorely needs to be improved. I honestly don't mean to criticize every little thing I can, but only try to point out where it can be improved, and what in my opinion would alleviate the problem. I don't hate Runescape, on the contrary, that is partly why I criticize it, I love it and I want it to be better and more grand than it is, I only say what I say because I want it to grow, both in members and as a game as a whole.
Author:  Anubis [ September 18th, 2011, 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
Oh wow, I like you :D Normally I'd post something like the above and get abuse thrown at me :P

Feel like it would be more appropriate to first say that the final part of my previous post was merely something I'd read and not in any way a snipe at players who criticise the game. I do it as much as most players if not more. I just thought it insightful because I'd never really broken it down that way before. Of course we all keep a part of our imaginations but that which we perceive as 'good', as time goes on, becomes much more specific. We can see this in musical taste quite easily - how many of our parents like all of the same music that we do? I know that my mother likes a few of the musicians I like but I'd hardly consider the majority of my taste to fit hers and vice versa.

I do agree to an extent that combat training on RuneScape can be tedious at times especially at the lower end when you're striving for the dragon dagger, as you appropriately mentioned, but the curve in my opinion has been made in a way in which getting to the level seems like it's taken a lot of effort but once you're past it you realise it didn't take that long at all. The next bit will take a while. Then you get to that target and the feeling repeats itself. I maxed my melee skills on Gluume and believe me it got to the point where I just stopped playing (and I did, at 98 in each of them). But when I came back I got the last level in no time at all, or at least it felt that way. That's approximately 1 million experience in each of them, effectively raising from level 1 to 73. But then again, on my current account Adustus, I'm finding it a lot harder to get to level 70 in each. But when I reach it my new targets will be set and I'll be well on my way within a week.

In comparison to WoW, you can have a number of characters bound to your account. 8 on a realm, 50 over the game. When you've levelled one character to the maximum level, you get to the fun bit. The ironically named 'end-game'. Yo still play at maximum level because that's where you get better. That doesn't happen in RuneScape because after you hit 99 in a skill there is literally no point to doing any more. Unless of course you're truly hardcore and simply want rank.
Plus I've found quite recently that when starting a new account on RuneScape the 'fun' of grinding those first few levels doesn't disappear like it did with WoW. I can't tell you how many times I've levelled characters up on WoW, the grind gets worse each time I do it. The experience of levelling up and doing the grind, you only get it once. After that it becomes awful. Really, really awful.

I think, while I do enjoy combat a great deal on RuneScape (primarily due to the slayer skill more than anything - I could not imagine how boring it'd be for f2pers), a game which had the combat mechanics of WoW and the skill progression mechanics of RuneScape, along with a heavy emphasis on both, would make one hell of a game which would undoubtedly destroy the competitors. What attracted me to WoW was the combat and the dungeons (a system which dungeoneering emulates horrifically and is probably why I despise the skill). However RuneScape has the massive selection of tradeskills. WoW gives you a couple but you can only have two per character and they are comparatively easy to train. The skills on RuneScape are what makes it great and the difficulty of getting them up is what makes the challenge. The challenge on WoW exists only in the high-end raids. And so we find in the two, very different games, we have two distinctively different feelings of achievement. Very few people on WoW are going to think to themselves they achieved something by maxing their mining skill. On RuneScape, 99 mining is a hell of an achievement and I applaud anyone who got that (legitimately). However if we look at it the other way around, those with the best gear on WoW will most certainly have achieved something. Those with the best gear on RuneScape are simply rich/lucky/scammers ;-).

I wrote the above off of the top of my head. I'm not sure if I missed anything. If I have I'll most likely correct that in a possible future post.
I am quite looking forward to your reply :D

(I've purposefully left out bots, they plague our game there's no need for them to plague our forum posts :P)
Author:  Duke Juker [ September 19th, 2011, 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
Without reading heavily into everything you guys said, what I would say is that grinding is quite an unnecessary activity. RPGs should be more creative and not revolve as much around grinding, but rather around stories/quests/missions/action. I suppose an RPG isn't an RPG without levels and leveling/grinding. Still, I wish there were some remedy that made that part of RPGs less boring and more interesting as well as exciting. The person who can solve that and perhaps make their own RPG will make millions.
Author:  Brimmk [ September 23rd, 2011, 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
Duke Juker wrote:
Without reading heavily into everything you guys said, what I would say is that grinding is quite an unnecessary activity. RPGs should be more creative and not revolve as much around grinding, but rather around stories/quests/missions/action. I suppose an RPG isn't an RPG without levels and leveling/grinding. Still, I wish there were some remedy that made that part of RPGs less boring and more interesting as well as exciting. The person who can solve that and perhaps make their own RPG will make millions.


One word, Mass Effect. If Bioware were to create an MMORPG, it'd probably kill everything else. Either that or if Jagex did add a more WoW like combat system with what is already there, yah, it would absolutely slay ever other MMO...
Author:  Adbot [ September 23rd, 2011, 8:42 am ]
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Author:  Ataronchronon [ September 30th, 2011, 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Informer Article] Is Grinding Good?
"Grinding" in a game such as rs is proof that the player has put some time and effort into the game, not simly made one lucky runthrough in a flash game or something. Grinding is worthless without a certain amount of skill in order to get something out of the time you spend, and having grinded 300+ days in rs without any regrets, I'd say grinding is what makes me play the game.
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